hurling i think we are on different frequencies because i don't quite get you on this. if you believe a lot of fringe styles are hip-hop (including jungle, which originated from breakbeat/techno, which actually developed parallel to hip-hop not from it) then i don't really see a problem.

even here loads of hip-hop heads are developing a sort of slower styled dubstep more suited from rhyming or just straight listening.

in terms of the MC though you have to take into consideration what the art of rapping entails. creativity and talent are just small parts when it comes to a person rhyming over unconventional beats. a lot has to do with their flow, their voice, their own particular style and what it is suited to.

the reason i say that a lot of grime is shit is because it is. it's just MCs doing insane double time, spitting nonsense that has no substance or coherence. just because they are doing something different does not mean they should be celebrated imo.



this is a very complicated situation and i think by simply calling a DJ a "middle man" you are being very ignorant to the role and importance that the DJ has played in both hip-hop and dance music.

when we create art and release it we always compromise. it is an inevitable fact. there is no art released that is not compromised because by our very nature we are heavily influenced by our surroundings. the line where our own thoughts end and those of society begins is a very blurry one indeed.

i do agree that dance producers must appease the dancefloor in the same way a hip-hop producer must appease an MC.

i said i agreed grime rappers suck i was talking about the beats.
say what you want, you can count on one hand true lyricists in rap for the last few years

DJ's push the music to the public, they act as the final say in a lot of genres they are very very literally the middle man.

i don't think this has much to do with the topic actually..more so:

yes!
and that is a double edge sword. sure great things come by limiting to those situations but also very boring things come as well in both dance and hiphop...


i warned you

i'm really sorry but i don't even know what you're trying to say now. if you say there have only been a few true lyricists in the past few years then i don't think you're really a rap fan.

when you refer to DJs as only the middle men i am wondering how much you know about the history of electronic music and how important a role the DJ has played. for a long time the majority of producers were DJs. they became producers because they knew what worked on the dancefloor and they felt they knew what people wanted. the DJs have been the creators of dance music since it's inception so to simply degrade them to the title of "middle-men" is rather insulting.

as i said i don't really know what point you're trying to get across. i think the original point had something to do with what is perceived as hip-hop nowadays and how it lacks innovation. you said that grime rappers were more innovative because they rapped over grime beats, but then say that grime rappers suck. innovation and quality do not go hand and hand, but it is should be taken into consideration when we are talking about music at least.

ok then name them? theres not many....

obviously they have played the most important role in times past. im not saying that DJ's are talentless or anything...
But dj's who don't produce have more say over what thrives in the genre than the actual producers or listeners do...this is truly a bad situation. you only have to site dubstep and dnb as the examples
they started off without heavy distortion or anything like that, but the dj's ended up playing more of the distorted kind, so the producers ended up following along, now when people think of dubstep and dnb, they think of heavy mid range bass....
thats not the producers fault, theres plenty of producers making dubstep that is actually dub influenced and has space in the sound like it used to but the dj's dont play it as much anymore.


the point is getting skewed because you are discussing minor points as discussions in themselves

grime could have just imitated us hip hop but they didn't...thats all. they tried to do something fresh and succeeded for a time but the rappers ended up being shitty lyrically

right they don't but rap is 30 years old...

EL-P is one of the few people around doing something new, but it still has the memory of older rap in it because thats what he grew up with. I am looking forward to see what the new generation does with it, not having heard dre, easy e, tupac, wu-tang... because as far as rap strays it still seems latched onto this framework and will not let go

if you don't get what im talking about thats fine, but trust me...rap needs someone on par of hendrix to come and turn everything on its head. and...kanye thinks he is that guy but no, someone who is actually NOT egoistical based lyrically

and all of this discussion is talking about underground guys anyway...
aesop rock and el-p don't get any love and they aren't even strange...

popular hiphop fans can't even appreciate lyricists like them

and before you say "popularity doesn't matter" its true, but look at the 60s. talent actually rose to the top, and the labels had the money to support the hard workers. fuck if el-p gets enough money for rent that month from royalties hes probably ecstatic.
so i dunno how anyone can look at hip hop, popular or underground and go
"everything is AOK"

i'm not going to argue with you because i simply cannot see what point you're trying to make. you're saying that hip-hop isn't innovative and that we should disregard whatever is happening in the underground because mainstream rap fans don't know about it.

kanye west does not think he is the new hendrix. he has said he is this generations MJ but that is just hype talking.

the POPULAR music industry today is completely different to what it was 40 years ago. the nature of business is to analyse what is successful and attempt to replicate that. that's why you do not get much innovation in mainstream music. mainstream music is a BUSINESS first and foremost. when new ideas break through and become popular they are then jumped on by major labels. of course the most popular artists these days aren't going to be innovative.

i probably won't reply in this thread again but i'm just wondering one thing. do you even like hip-hop or do you just have a mild interest in it? the reason i ask because it sounds as if somebody who isn't even a fan of hip-hop is very opinionated on how it should move forward in the future.

yes i am a fan, but also one who isn't satisfied with the norm: popular or underground.

people like dibiase and the brainfeeder crew have a chance to change everything though

any genre is too limiting basically, because people have expectations of the sound, the expectations lead to trends, the trends stagnate and repeat.

honest question here.

why did you have to insert a rolling eyes emoticon as it is rather condescending. i was just asking you a genuine question, are you a fan of hip-hop. i was just curious. artists like flying lotus are considered to be hip-hop. is that good enough for you?

i don't mind have discussions online but when they resort to pettiness it gets quite annoying. we both have differing opinions on the matter, whatever that matter is i'm not exactly sure of because i don't know what point you're trying to get across.

are you saying that you don't know what hip-hop is anymore?
or that the very term "hip-hop" is constricting?
or that the genre itself lacks innovation?

from my point of view i still have a clear view of what is hip-hop.
i personally don't find the genre of hip-hop to be confining at all because it can be so versatile if it wants to be. remember hip-hop doesn't always need an MC.
and on wheter the genre is innovating. i believe innovation is always happening. wheter or not we are aware of it is a different story. unfortunately some things are created in such a way that they can only evolve so far until they become something else. it is still not clear as to wheter or not that is the case with hip-hop. although it stands more of a chance than other electronic genres as it isn't as dancefloor orientated.

cause its attack ad hominem, i must not know what im talking about cause im not hip hop
if thats not the case , i am truly sorry.

sorry im not trying to offend or condescend.. but people get touchy about their genres.
i think you are focusing in on individual things rather than getting the big picture. the whole genre is in disarray , and the whole concept of working in specific genres is failing to create good music as of lately...
but like i said, Brainfeeder is doing the righteous work of progress...they don't discriminate against music because it doesn't fit an image like the majority of hip hop labels would do, this is the important part, in the US

truth
see what im arguing isn't that i don't think hip hop is innovating, its that when it does innovate close minded people won't take notice of it as hip hop because of the new mentality it has.
If its no longer "get paid get laid" and its more like "open your fuckin mind" with more spiritual connotations then i truly think that the hip hop culture will reject it in the US for their mindless exaggerations of minimal success and money.

you are confusing that to mean that I am saying its not innovating, no thats not the case at all
im trying to take the stance of the naysayer so to speak, although it is not my position

and whether we are aware of it depends on the labels notice of someones ability to gather an audience or tap into an existing one
brainfeeder is taking aim at the psychedelic crowd, not the hip hop one, though they do overlap because true hip hop fans know whats up .

genres restrict artists...
for an example outside of hip hop and dance and other sometimes goal oriented music

when squarepusher, aphex twin, and venetian snares sat down to make music
none of them had a goal besides pleasing their own ears, none of them called themselves dnb or idm or edm or whatever, they just pushed their sound to the very limit of their ability
this attitude is very hard to find in hip hop nowadays, people get to a point and stop, or decide to produce quantity instead of a deeper sound

do you think that afrikaa bambattaa gave two shits if people thought he was hip hop or not? he just pushed it to the limit of his imagination
so then it comes to:
"not everyone can be an innovator or creative genius"
creativity or musical "genius" is absolutely irrelevant if you just stop trying to please anybody but yourself...pleasing innovative music WILL result regardless of your creativity with throwing standards out the window

its like painters in the middle ages, for centuries they did work commissioned for the church, and it was bland and not very expressive because they did it solely for the money. there was no expression in these portraits of kings, popes, violent scenes, etc. and they always had the same rigid guidlines as using RED as a focal point.
t
hat doesn't mean that artists during the middle ages weren't producing amazing material, but to history they are non-existant because they had no one to appreciate their work.

so please don't think im angry or anything, debate is one of my favorite things to do, and i get carried away, but we agree more than you think, just that we are perceiving different things. also a factor may be that you can view the US hip hop without any preconceptions of who listens to it, the scene, the fans, the image, etc and just appreciate it for what it is. which is something you should be thankful for

i also like having debates. it is just hard sometimes to know when people get too carried away. i admit i probably wanted to defend hip-hop a little because i grew up with it, but i truly believe everything i posted.

it is interesting you bring up brainfeeder going after a different crowd. i hope they don't cross over completely and try to appease an indie fanbase totally and alienate the hip-hop fans. for example (this is just my personal opinion btw) warp records have been putting out amazing electronic music for 20 years but i will be honest and say i am disinterested in their recent signings of some indie bands.

for example i love bad brains but when they used to perform they used to play to hardcore fans. they'd play a couple of fast hardcore punk songs and then they'd just bust into a reggae song. while some people were able to stand back and go "that's cool", a lot of the crowd were pissed. not because they hated or even disliked reggae, but because they came to see some hardcore not some reggae.

that is just an example and not necessarily representative of my feelings on the matter.

i like music and i like the music i like. the reason we have variety is because different people like different things. i know good music is good music but when somebody specalises in something they can excel more. this is more of a clinical view, but it is more realistic nonetheless.

on the matter of genres again. it also acts as a tool of organisation. for example with the explosion of the internet, online message boards and social networking sites music has become more abundant than ever. if every forum relating to music was not broken down into smaller categories it would be kind of a mess.

oh and btw medieval art commissioned by the church was truly amazing. in fact although the church stifled the ongoing march of science it gave us countless works of magnificent art.

i dunno about calling it a crossover, more openess is always good.
in this aspect i am really jealous of the 60's rock/folk/psychedelic scene.
they really did not care who got up on stage as long as they had soul, there was no genre really, just a mentality of individuality and creativity. they probably would have loved flying lotus

warps latest stuff is definitely no good.
i think i heard a band on there with just 4 minutes of hoovers....


i feel the same way man, and this is exactly the kind of example i wish i had earlier
as soon as people latch on to a part of your sound, you may have to decide on a road to take, which one path is usually a compromise to keep the record sales coming in



hmm there is a point to be made there as well. specialization is always best, but specialization in your own soul is even better

yea i have no desire to talk about this subject with a hardcore lil wayne fan indeed.

chapels and architecture: yes

paintings: technically impressive but not soulful imo

This is argument is retarded. No offense to either party

it probably is.
you are from the bay right? they always have new good shit coming up out of nowhere and people are down with it

but every time i go to a local show in boston, rock, hiphop, whatever its always the same shit that every ones heard 1000 times unless its a big name on tour. the clubs here are just not down with getting a new vibe going.