Hello all-

Just got a 404- pretty cool (battery power, built in mic, efx, CF, sound quality)- pretty frustrating at times (no pitch/speed control, sample copy, global efx mode, no larger integer for sample editing, etc.)- have Yamaha RS7000, Korg ES-1, etc.

My current question is about individual sample BPM. I found some cool guitar ideas on my voice recorder- sampled it in through the mic (worked great) and first time it made a stereo sample at 137BPM which was correct-

Then I realized it was stereo and not wanting to waste space or resources I resampled it in mono- but the BPM always ends up at 102- and I have unplugged midi cable and trimmed just like original. Any ideas as to why and how I can get this sample at the correct BPM? I know 102 is the 404 default, but I also know it calculates BPM of new samples and in this case seems to be doing it incorrectly. Mono/Stereo sample issue?

Also- is it just me or is the tap tempo button fairly useless in sample mode?

I'm grateful for this forum- thanks in advance!

Om

PS- Thanks to those who shared Rhodes and Mellotron samples.

the samples bpm is calculated by the samples length. That it changed to 102 bpm means that you have a sample that is too long. You can try to use start/end point editing to cut off the stuff at the end until the sample is at 132 or whatever you want again.

ps:

The samples bpm isn't really important. It's just that it works perfectly with the effects (the delay amount changes with the bpm).
Just sequence the beat and have the guitar play where you want.

Like I said before, tempo of the sample is automatically calculated by the machine, regarding the length of the sample.

Thanks- however:

The samples are the same length- only difference is mono vs stereo as far as I can tell.

Also, I might have had midi connected at the time of original recording- could that affect the way the 404 calculates the sample's BPM?

I have trimmed and truncated both samples- no difference.

I also just tried resampling to a stereo file instead- no difference.

Om

press both pads at the same time and tell me if the lights go out at the same time.

mostblunted-
yes, both lights go out at the exact same time
thanks-
Om

bpm is always way suss -

worked hard to craft a range of different samples to the one bpm - 89

using guide beats so know exactly where to cut it -

resample and then it comes up with a bpm of 141 -

had spent too much time on running that sample thru efx - nothing I could do could bring it back

then resampled that 141 bpm sample - and it comes up with -

yu guessed it - 89 bpm.

wtf?

Damn folks are in the dark. The sample tempo is calculated by the length of the sample automatically so a midi cable won't change it unless you have the 404 sync'd with something external. If the two samples play at the same length then they are the same regardless of what the 404 tells you, so in actuallity bpm doesn't matter at all when you chop samples on beat and place them on a beat. I'll let you guys figure out the rest like I did.

uhh- ya- thanks for letting us "figure it out like you did"

I'm not sure why you bother to post if it is below you to help noobs with valid questions- but its up to you where you spend or waste your time, I would just prefer it be somewhere else than on the posts I am asking questions in. In any event you say "The sample tempo is calculated by the length of the sample automatically so a midi cable won't change it unless you have the 404 sync'd with something external." The point of my mentioning the midi connection is that it was most likely synced as slave with another device. No matter, I'll figure it out myself.

Anyway- for anyone who wishes to help further- the samples do not work the same when used in a pattern unless you keep the orig and set the pattern to this BPM value- it seems the original sample has the correct tempo (85 BPM) but the resampled versions are off (63 BPM). You can set the pattern to the proper tempo but only if you have the original sample. This seems odd that the 404 would choose different BPM for samples of the exact same length. Another thing that could be an issue is effects- on this particular example I used the Vinyl Sim with some flutter and compression on the resampled version.

Thanks,

Om

my instance had nothing to do with midi. I thought the sp404 based it's bpm calcs on the length of a sample (sample length divided by 4?) so that's why i am perpelexed.

and I had worked very hard to replicate the exact length of a 1 bar 4 beat loop.

I lay some guide beats to help get that loop just right -

- made a sample from other gear (this was a drum machine) which is 4 beats (1 bar) plus 1 beat

then used the start/finish to shave the tail until sliced that 5th beat off at it's cutting front edge - and brought the sample in sync (NOT midi sync) with the drum machine and ending up at 85 bpm on the sample to match the machine.

but have found even doing that - don't expect the pattern bpm to maintain that sample bpm if you set that sample on loop.

it won't take long for them to part and go separate ways.

there's a world of difference in 1 bpm on the sp404.

so that the readout should go from a 85 bpm 1 bar loop to a 141 bpm would mean it's shortened so much of the sample and chopped off an entire beat - at least - and made it a 3 beat bar - or even close to 2 and half.

it didn't

and of course when i resampled it again and trimmed the space back it popped up at 85 - so I got three indentical 4 beat sample loops - two at 85 and one at 141 -

"If the two samples play at the same length then they are the same regardless of what the 404 tells you"

if the sp404 is working like it's supposed to it - and basing a readout on a measure of sample length it shouldn't be coming up with a discrepancy of 50 plus bpm - jesus wept.

bishojo-

Yes, the 404 calculates the BPM based on sample length but it seems to work poorly at times.

What I think people are saying is that apparently the 404s BPM for each sample is not to be trusted or used- it is the Pattern BPM that is the key- as it will play all samples at the Pattern BPM regardless of what the individual sample's BPM is set to. So for example the sample you created that is showing incorrect BPM should in fact play properly when used in a pattern that is set to the correct BPM.

To me this is a bummer and would force me to keep a piece of paper with notes about my samples and Pattern's BPMs. For example if I want to use a 4 or 8 bar sample in another Pattern I would have no way to know what tempo to set the Pattern to without notes or a previous Pattern to reference that used the sample and correct BPM.

Om

In good time you'll see no of this matters for making beats on a 404, if anything it will lead to new stuff on accident that's better than what you were looking for. It's how you place them on the beat, bpm has nothing to do with it really.

if the bpm is way off like 50 beats then you need to turn the middle knob with the bpm light on.

resampling definetly changes the bpm but like they said if you apply it to a pattern with the correct bpm it sounds right. but since you said guitar i think maybe you arent going to make patterns? so you should try chopping the sample on a computer where you can see the wave and re-recording it there with any of the effects you need, then put it on the 404 to play live

DR.Sample303:
I have had that experience with other devices- hopefully I will find the same with the 404 as you suggest.

dman5000:
Ya I understand how to adjust the BPM as you describe- but as I mentioned, these are resamples that are the exact same length that are way off and adjusting with the knob only doubles or halves the already off BPM. Why would I not make patterns with guitar samples? I'm also not sure I see the advantage to using a computer to edit the sample- i can adjust the start/end points as well with my ear on the 404 as I can with a waveform display on the computer- that is actually one of my biggest gripes with the 404 and one of the things I love about my ES-1 is that when editing samples you can hold a modifier key (shift on the ES-1) and move in much larger steps through the sample to get to where you want the start/end and then let go and fine tune it- and the endless encoder dial is a big part of that too- way faster than using a computer- and really nice to just use your ears.

Thanks for the suggestions- I am certainly encouraged by this forum that is very active with responsive users.

Cheers-

Om

The number you see for the bpm value is never completely accurate; a 99.5 bpm beat will still show like a 99 or 100 bpm beat an 98.9 beat might also show like a 99 bpm beat, if you would use these 2 99bpm beats as loops then you would nevever be able to match em exactly since they will drift away from each other over time, despite the fact that the 404 displays both samples as 99 bpm sample.