Any holidays in your countries where u celebrate a lie? And do you know the history of our "holiday"? Hey , at least it's an excuse for black friday, gotta love that!

Man, I don't know the details, all that matters to me is that I get my share of mac-and-cheese and turkey breast on my plate.

Not saying that I'm not taking the day to spend w my girl & kids to eat some good food, chill, and have a good day-but turkey & mac & cheese is far from all that matters. I always make a point to make sure they remember the roots of thanksgiving,and that it's not what they learn in school. Here's a couple texts from Howard Zinn and Judith Moriarty-- if you're truly interested in the "details". Be warned though, it involves a little over 5 minutes of reading.

"...First of all, the treatment of our history with the Indians (the indigenous population) is a very weak and indequate treatment. I remember going to school and I would learn about Indians who came to Thanksgiving dinner gratefully. I would learn about Custer’s Last Stand, I would learn about Sitting Bull. There were a few moments in Indian history that we’d learn about. What we didn’t learn about was the fact that the American colonists that came here from the beginning were invading Indian soil and driving the Indians out of their land and committing massacres in order to persuade the Indians that they’d better move. And the history of the U.S. is a history of hundreds of little wars fought against the Indians, annihilating them, pushing them farther and farther onto a smaller and smaller piece of the country. And finally, in the late 19th century, taking the Indians that were left and squeezing them onto a reservation and controlling them.

This is a history that is not told in most American textbooks. The story that’s not told is the deceptions that were played on the Indians, the treaties that were made with them, the treaties that were then broken by the American government. It’s important to know that, because if you do, then you will become aware that the American government can lie. It can deceive people. It can do it not only in relation to Native Americans, it can do it in relation to all of us."--Howard Zinn

We are the people of the LIE. "The history of any country presented as the history of a family conceals fierce conflicts of interest. And in such a world of conflict-a world of victims and executioners, it is the JOB of thinking people, NOT to be on the side of the executioners. In the long run the oppressor is also the victim. In the short run, the victims, themselves desperate and tainted with the culture that oppresses them, turn on other victims." Howard Zinn - The People Speak. Note: The true history of our nation - 20 years in the writing - told from the voice of the "other."

The Disney World Lie will be perpetuated in churches across America as preachers pontificate "The Pilgrims brought GOD to these shores". Judging by the barbaric-atrocious behavior of these Pilgrims-God must have hitched a ride back to England shortly after He arrived here! The Puritans benefactors, who welcomed them and helped them to survive their first years here, were massacred by these Godly Puritans-setting whole villages a fire (we use bombs-napalm today). Cotton Mather, one of the more odious and obdurate Pilgrims wrote: "It was supposed that no less than 600 souls were brought down to Hell that day" Mather in his Annals of Christ in America, wrote" I do, with all conscience of truthreport the wonderful displays of His infinite power, wisdom, goodness, and faithfulness.

"The only good Indian is a dead Indian"---this prejudicial quote was said not only by politicians and military officials but echoed throughout many old western movies (our leader an imposter cowboy with his "Wanted dead or alive"). Even President Theodore Roosevelt said, "I don't go so far as to think that the only good Indians are dead Indians; but I believe nine out of ten are, and I shouldn't inquire too closely into the case of the tenth. The most vicious cowboy has more moral principle than the average Indian." Redskin is a derogatory word for Indian. It holds the same weight as calling someone a 'spick' or a 'nigger'. Squaw-the true meaning of this world is 'Indian whore' or an obscene term referring to female genitalia. Idaho ruled against removing the derogatory word 'Squaw' from 93 places within their state. Lawmaker Harwood said," I don't think the word id derogatory. It's the way it's being said that would make'em take it that way" Representative Twila Hornback said, "Just because people take it as offensive doesn't make it offensive".

Remember the Lone Ranger and his faithful sidekick 'Tonto?' What does it mean? It is the Spanish word for FOOL. I suppose that "queer-spic-wetback-nigger-trailer trash-geek-gook-slant eyes-vermin-rag head-hillbilly-simpletons-Jesus freaks-holy rollers-et al" are all just a matter of how people take it? Only a joke-eh?

Thank you (respondent) for your "positive affirmations/ Scripture"; and the fairy tale story of the First Thanksgiving-a perversion of truth. It is NOT my "take" on the non-existent first Thanksgiving-but the history not told in this nation. It's not "negative" to show the myth and lie that our nation was built on and continues to live to this very day. Thursday should be a day of mourning-not gorging.

This fairy tale was allowed to exist until 1970 the 350th anniversary of the landing of the Pilgrims. This is when Frank B. James, president of the Federated Eastern Indian League prepared a speech for a Plymouth banquet that exposed the Pilgrim for having committed, among other crimes, the robbery of the graves of the Wampanoags. He wrote: "We welcomed you the white man with open arms, little knowing that it was the beginning of the end; that before 50 years were to pass, the Wampanoag would no longer be a free people". James was not permitted to give his speech that day.instead hundreds of Indians protested.

A Harvest feast did take place in Plymouth-but the Indians who attended where not even invited. Though it later became known as "Thanksgiving" the Pilgrims never called it that. Amidst the IMAGERY of a picnic of interracial harmony is some of the most terrifying bloodshed in New World history. The Pilgrim crop had failed miserably, but the agricultural expertise of the Indians had produced twenty acreswithout which the Pilgrim would have perished. The Pilgrims relied almost exclusively on handouts from the generous Indians-thus making Pilgrims the western hemisphere's first class of welfare recipients.

There were no black hats or buckled shoes-these are the silly inventions of various myth makers. The Pilgrims consumed a good deal of home brew. In fact each Pilgrim drank at least a half gallon of beer a day which they preferred to water. This daily inebriation led Gov. William Bradford to comment on his people's "notorious sin" which included their "drunkenness and uncleanliness" and rampant "sodomy".

The Pilgrims were no friends to the local Indians. Pilgrim Myles Standish pretending to be a trader beheaded an Indian man named Wituwamat-he brought his head to Plymouth where it was displayed on a wooden spike for years as a symbol of "white power". Standish had the Indian man's young brother hanged from the rafters for good measure. From that time on the whites were know to the Indians of Massachusetts by the name "Wotowquenange" which in their tongue meant cutthroats and stabbers.

Thomas Jefferson who himself advocated the physical extermination of the American Indian-said of Europe, "They (Europeans) are nations of eternal war. All their energies are expended in the destruction of labor, property and lives of their people.

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Now I don't agree that this should be a day of complete "mourning"-but I'm also sure to say a long prayer to my native anscestors thanking THEM for their sacrifices, and letting their spirits know they are still remembered. It's very important all Americans are exposed to the truths of this country when it comes to these types of things--as well as non-americans that are so heavily influenced by american culture. Of course,many americans can look truth right in the eye and still spit in it.

It's tough balancing being an individual who understands the bullshit that comes with these sorts of religious holidays, and being a family member and a friend at the same time. I feel like a hypocritical asshole at most thanksgiving and Christmas dinners keeping my mouth shut, all the while knowing the real history and real reasons why these holidays are celebrated.

But this is life I guess... respect for keeping your kids educated, too many people teach their kids to accept these lies. It's created a vicious circle of blindfolded followers

Hey nation,that's funny man,really... Now go explain these things to some kids under 12-13 years old and see if they respond in the same condescending way.Not to mention a grown man just said he didn't know the "details". By the way,never seen you post before-instead of taking the time to post a clever owl flick,why don't you let us hear some music?Canuck-that's pretty much exactly what I'm saying...really though,this is my absolute least favorite time of year.

Like most things, the meanings of things change. Thanksgiving has grown into a holiday that celebrates the meaning of friendship and being thankfull for the things you own. Christmas has also grown from worshiping the birth of the Christian lord to worshiping Santa Claus and "buying as much presents for your kids as possible!!!!! " just realize that people will fall into the "darkside" of these changes.

"Thanksgiving" has ALWAYS been a holiday for americans to celebrate family and friends,and "be thankful". Thats kinda the point and the problem.

can you define non-americans?

I am 4th generation Native and I have mixed feelings about the "holiday", thanksgiving. It sucks that you and your whole town can be annihilated, and then (in the very least on top of all that) forgotten about over time because the only type of memorial is a celebration of food and it is stuck in the middle of two dumb holidays called Halloween, and an even stupider holiday that makes people spend all their income on materialistic bullshit...Christmas.

I won't deny an invitation to a feast with my family...But I'd be stupid to believe the horse-shit stories that are repeatedly told to you as a kid. The "pilgrims" and the "indians" sat down like the fucking last supper and ate turkey and corn...fucking puritan bullshit.

Just be thankful that you aren't dead yet... and you can still make time to spend with your family to eat, drink, and relax. Not everyone on the american continent thinks that it's about "eating turkey, football, and being thankful for my job and girlfriends great tits!".

i have no idea when thanksgiving is.. ok well its in november right? but thats it..

In australia it desn't really get a mention except on all the american TV shows.

^^^ This is what I meant by "non-american" Idiom. I was originally just curious of the impression all the people that post on here from other countries get about thanksgiving, and if there's any holidays in a simmilar vein in other parts of the world we might not know about. I have a lot of Native blood in me myself,as well as Black & Spanish...along with Irish Scottish & Polish--and I was adopted into a Jewish family. Grew up with mainly Black kids so needless to say I've been exposed to mad different culures, religions and ways of thinking. But I'm always amazed at how many people, regardless of race or religion,etc... are almost completely unaware of the true history of so many of "our" traiditions,customs,holidays, and religions. Even more amazed by the people that DO know the facts but simply don't care- or think that something like the genocide of millions of Native Americans was somehow justified & just a sidenote in american history.
But again-- you do have to find a middle ground with this kind of stuff, or you'll drive yourself crazy. I just woke up fom my post-feast coma.. and it doesn't take a special day of the year for me to feel thankful-- but I'm definitely thankful to be surrounded my so much love...been a lot of years where a day like this wasn't even a possibility--hopefully never again in the future. Now for some adult swim & cherry pie.

Yeah that's a pretty unfortunate situation, don't get me wrong.

However this kind awareness goes both ways, I doubt you're aware of the significance (in both positive and negative aspects) of the 26th of January to Australia and as an Australian to be honest that doesn't worry me. This isn't something that we expect people non-Aussies to be aware of.

Culture is learned through exposure, as you yourself have described. If an Australian is not exposed to the meanings & significance of an American tradition (other than roast turkey & nationalism), it isn't out of disrespect. It very likely isn't out of intentional ignorance either.

^did I just miss the point of your comments entirely there?

Thanks for the history lesson by the way!

I read all this stuff, and it was indeed interesting.

I've heard about your thanksgiving celebration day, but never really knew what its all about.

Nothing comes to my mind when I think of celebrating a lie on a specific day here, but I can think of one person who actually IS a "lie".

Lech Walesa ( I guess around top 3 of internationally known Poles ) is a lie.
Nobel prize winning hero, admired by 99% of our society.
Former informer for the Polish secret police ( the bad guys ). Later just a puppet.

Despite obvious proofs - he denies all this, and the current establishment makes everything to keep it on the low. ( Blocking publications of the books about that etc. ).

It's just supposed to be like this.

@Unfolding-- No, I'm not aware of the 26th of jan. in australia- which was one of my reasons for the thread, I was curious about any kind of simmilar things in other countries. When I mentioned people being unaware or not caring, I was speaking of americans. I wouldn't take someone from australia not knowing about our history as offensive in the least. El-I'd like to look up more info on what you're talking about, sounds really interesting, and of course really crooked. And as corrupted as american government is, sometimes we forget about the blatent censorship that still exists in a lot of other countries.

@ nation - i thought that response was hilarious.

@ elhuana - that's the first i'd heard of walesa being a collaborator and informant. very, very disturbing. i guess status quo keeps that from being exposed in a country that's had more than its fair share of hard times.

@ AD - agreed on thnxgvng being co-opted into a farce that whitewashes genocide.

what also gets passed over is the fact that thanksgiving, like christmas, new years, and other events are long-standing pagan / native traditions that whitey has taken as his own.

so the idea of a meal to celebrate the harvest, or to use to show thankfulness for surviving a long journey is, to me, less disturbing unto itself, and more disturbing when it is willingly disassociated from its origins.

in canada we celebrate thanksgiving. we don't have a crazy shopping day, we don't talk about pilgrims. but we also don't really talk about celebrating the harvest (unless we're talking about Neil Young's Harvest....which we celebrate every day).