hey hurling d i'm thinking of copping this around xmas time but i'm just wondering about a few things.

is ableton live all about working with loops? what advantages does it have over other more "traditional" sequencers? i'm talking about the session view here. i've only played with the demo of ableton for a bit and got a bit bored so i uninstalled it.

i'm interested in getting ableton lite, eventually upgrading to the full version, as max for live is coming soon. to be quite honest the live features of the program don't really appeal to me as i like the way i work now. i currently work with reason and my sp404 and i sequence with renoise. i have cubase4 le currently where i mix my tracks down.

steinberg are currently doing a deal where you can upgrade to cubase 5 for 200euro if you have some of the "lite" versions of cubase, cubase4 le being one of them.

i'm wondering how the midi editing in live compares to other daws. i also am wondering how it is for post-production, ie. mixing.

i am somebody who "plays" their beats on hardware (mpc, outboard synth, sp) and "programs" their beats when the project moves to the computer. i don't use a midi controller at all and feel much more comfortable without one.

i'm wondering would live fit my workflow or would i be better of going with cubase.

I might try Ableton once I get my own computer...
Gotta see what the hype's all about.

ill try to cover the grounds but there is a LOT here to answer...

where to start...
(beware of long caffeinated post!!)
ABOUT LOOPS:

yes ableton can work with loops, but the way its designed is that once you have a bunch of clips recorded you can then try out different combinations, as if you had a bajillion of sp's running in pattern mode synced together.
then if you find a combination you like you can group them with a function called "capture and insert scene" (think of scenes as parts of the song, intro verse chorus etc) so you can fire that whole section of the song off with one click.
of course thats just assuming you are blindly improvising and mucking about.
ADVANTAGES:
the advantages over traditional sequencers are quite numerous, but also quite hard to explain. it is like a "more than the sum of its parts" type deal as the roland sp's are. you can describe what the sp's do but it doesn't really give anyone a good idea of why they are the bee's knee's. actually the first time i tried ableton i unistalled it as well, it wasn't until i had the need to record hardware and guitar that the program really opened up to me.

the MAIN advantage ableton has over everything else is "jam-a-bility". When i was recording guitar into a standard daw it didn't feel like fun at all...it was boring and tedious. but when you have the sections of the songs laid out in session view, and a non-linear approach, you can easily jam over the chorus and then jump to another part without stopping. actually most of the work in ableton can be done without stopping the "feeling" of the music, you can stay in the mindset longer because it doesn't force you to draw your tracks in a straight line on the multi track, unless you want to use the arrange mode from the start.

and another great advantage is the effects. they are all superb quality except for the reverb which is just alright. not much to say about the effects except i don't use more than a couple third party vsts because ableton makes sure the bases are covered.

MIXING:
all the effects are NON-DESTRUCTIVE. you will never resample unintentionally and lose the source file. even if you do resample, it keeps a temporary file of the original in the project folder (if for some reason you deleted the clip), and asks you if you want to delete the unused files when saving.

the plugins have been more than enough for me. the EQ8 gets the job done. The compressor is all you need from a compressor. the limiter is so-so, if i bought any third party plugins it would be a limiter. but you cant notice the limiter's flaws unless you are really terrible at mixing and need to run into the limiter at full force of intense 3000000 dB gain reduction or something

you can group tracks for easier mixing (select them cntrl g) so you have a bus with a audio chain ready to mix the tracks which it contains. you can also route audio to sends or other audio channels for further bussing. when routing audio the groups also appear as one track.

PLAYING MUSIC
you will find that ableton is VERY much directed at people who "play" their music. it is essentially why the session view works so well. instead of sliding the take you are unsure of to the end of the song in that track like with cubase, you can just move it down a notch in session view and record another. you can also color and rename them quickly to keep it visually organized
with the warping engine you can fix timing errors if you wish or just completely mess up and warp the sound to a glitchy mess. they also added audio quantization if that floats your boat.

MIDI:
some of the easiest automation to work with. right click in the arrange window "show all automated parameters" and you will get a new lane for every setting you change with recording. the midi automation copies with the arrangement you recorded if you want to duplicate it into another part of the song, unless you tell it not to. in cubase you have individually copy each automation track because it doesn't copy with the track it was automating.
supports just about any midi controller you can throw at it and is incredibly easy to set up midi controls. ctrl M then click on a knob and move the midi control in real life and your set. you can control the range of midi cc's inside ableton or invert them so 127 is 0 and 0 is 127 etc.

phew... yea and after all that you should watch some tutorials on the program in general and "legato mode" if you really want to see some cool very unique stuff.
Great Videos and articles:

ABLETON FOR HARDWARE DUDES: http://soundsandgear.com/ableton-live-t ... equencing/

Tom Cosm's website - http://www.cosm.co.nz/

Nick the Zombie- http://nickstutorials.com/

Abletons tutorial archive http://www.ableton.com/pages/movies/archive/tutorial

and
YOUTUBE.COM

what i think is the coolest thing about ableton is that its pretty straight forward to get started on, yet the more you use it the more you realise how complex it actually is....

for example, within an hour of using it i was already well into creating a song, yet i have no idea about half of the stuff hd talks about (altho i learn alot from it)..

its also nice on the eyes unlike alot of more 'professional' software, which makes a diffrence if your gonna be spending hours staring at it..

thanks for the taking the time to post all that hd. very informative.

after reading that i think i might just upgrade to cubase 5 but also purchase ableton lite. that way i can upgrade to the full version of ableton in a couple of months if i like the general feel of the program. tbh i can never get in touch with a program if i'm just using the demo. but i'm really looking forward to trying it out now. the way you described it as akin to having multiple sp's and how you described the clips (i think) makes the program sound very intuitive and interesting for pattern based beat creation.

also i don't know if anybody here has experience with it but would any of you have any idea of how well rewire is integrated within ableton?

*edit*

argh i don't know now. just as i was typing my post i kind of realised i really really want ableton now

just wondering is the suite version worth the extra cash? i'm pretty happy with my softsynths but i'm just a bit wary as the sampler seems part of the suite package. dammit.

is suite worth it?
yea but it depends on how much you'll use operator and sampler and all that
if you get the standard version and you want operator and sampler you will be spending another 300 dollars approx...
so essentially you would end up paying the same amount as the suite but with less additional plugins.
so if you want all the good plugins and you aren't going to be working exclusively with your own vst's and hardware synths then it definitely is better to get the suite. its a bit skeezy that they do it like that but its worth it 100 percent.
also if you are a student you can get a big ass discount from the 650 or whatever it was to 419