Justifying loops

[Durdy]

Some times I’ll catch a hot loop and not want to do much in the way of drums for it. I hear a hot loop and I’m like “ that’s a beat right there! Damn! That’s a hot loop”. For a lot of us on the forums our favorite producers like MF DOOM alchemist etc. have put out instrumentals that are really just a selected phrase of music from a previously released piece of music “ the hot part” “the get down part”. I get that it comes from early dj juggling in the late 70s which was an amazing cultural revolution, but how do we justify it in this day and age? Currently it’s very easy with the sp or ur daw to set loop points, copy, and paste. So is it a talent to have an ear for loops? Sure! Can anyone do it? Perhaps! Perhaps not! Does it even need to be justified? Lmk how you feel!

[ghost bazz]

I look at loop digging as a DJ-oriented approach to beatmaking… putting the emphasis on beat matching, loop juggling, and knowledge of vinyl. Of course it all comes from the classic DJ-setup... two turntables and a mixer. Once it's taken to the studio, and the live element is removed, the process begins to lose its shine. AND... in the digital realm, where cats are zooming in on wav files from shit they found on some forum or ripped from youtube, it falls off entirely in my opinion. But this is coming from a principled, technical perspective... it's not always obvious to the ears of the listener.

Even in it's purest form, the loop digging approach doesn't offer much in the way of production value imo... as it is essentially a matter of curating someone else's compositions. But that's not to take away from the clout and skill of a dope DJ. It's a highly technical and nuanced skill set, and requires above all else... the most crucial element of making and interacting with music... a good ear.

I think the main thing is to acknowledge that they are different lanes. Of course, the general listening public has no clue whatsoever... so they will jump on whatever sounds good. Whether it is regurgitated... or original.

I know of some very talented cats on here with DJ'ing backgrounds. I'd love to hear them weigh in. This is a great topic of debate.

[PARKER JORDAN]

Before I was like "hey don't just loop something blablabla" but now I don't care, if I like the beat it's okay.
https://mrdibiase.bandcamp.com/track/starsout
This track is a perfect exemple of loop only (loop over loop) but I keep this beat forever in my heart.
Don't judge, so that you won't be judged.

[LoopmantrA]

If I like the beat and overall vibe /production, I'd take a bigger chunk of the drum loop - not always a full bar or something (though I used to do that as well) but usually, like, kick and the first hihat, as well as snare and the hihat afterwards. Also chop individually and play around with it. Couple of rolls maybe, crash here and there, whatever I can chop.

I don't think it's wrong (longer drum loops) if it works - it works, fck it. Maybe it's taking the easier way out, as in you're spending less time working on the beat, but at the end of the day, would some random listeners vaguely, if at all, familiar with music production / Samplers etc - care?
I don't think it makes much of a difference tbh. Unless it's some highly recognisable beat, and you don't change the production that much, that kinda sucks

The whole 'sampling' thing is a bit of a stealing, whichever way you look at it, and no matter how much you change the original sample source by using efx /time stretching etc - technically, it's not really yours

But also - can someone say it's not yours if you flip to the point it's absolutely unrecognisable compared to the original ?

I'd say the only truly fair thing to do would be this :
Always mention the author of your sample source, especially If you're using a bigger chunk of it.

[GOODMAMA]

yall thinking way too hard
the emotional resonance of music (and art in general) has little to do with the amount of "effort" put in to a track
all artists understand that creativity is a flow-state that we CHANNEL not CREATE
so take your ego out of it
if its dope its dope
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c6qOBFkvdG0

[ghost bazz]

yall thinking way too hard
the emotional resonance of music (and art in general) has little to do with the amount of "effort" put in to a track
all artists understand that creativity is a flow-state that we CHANNEL not CREATE
so take your ego out of it
if its dope its dope
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c6qOBFkvdG0

Ummm... so if you take someone else's dope song, and copy half of it, you too have in fact created a dope song?

If I like the beat and overall vibe /production, I'd take a bigger chunk of the drum loop - not always a full bar or something (though I used to do that as well) but usually, like, kick and the first hihat, as well as snare and the hihat afterwards. Also chop individually and play around with it. Couple of rolls maybe, crash here and there, whatever I can chop.

I don't think it's wrong (longer drum loops) if it works - it works, fck it. Maybe it's taking the easier way out, as in you're spending less time working on the beat, but at the end of the day, would some random listeners vaguely, if at all, familiar with music production / Samplers etc - care?
I don't think it makes much of a difference tbh. Unless it's some highly recognisable beat, and you don't change the production that much, that kinda sucks

The whole 'sampling' thing is a bit of a stealing, whichever way you look at it, and no matter how much you change the original sample source by using efx /time stretching etc - technically, it's not really yours

But also - can someone say it's not yours if you flip to the point it's absolutely unrecognisable compared to the original ?

I'd say the only truly fair thing to do would be this :
Always mention the author of your sample source, especially If you're using a bigger chunk of it.

I think your response begins by addressing drum loops... but when I read the OP I was thinking more along the lines of beats that cop the whole composition verbatim in chunks equal to or greater than 2 bars lets say. If you are just copping a drum loop, you are only borrowing the rhythm... you can still do a lot of compositional stuff on top of that with smaller chops. With machines like the 808 that sometimes struggle to playback 1/8th note or 1/16 note patterns, this technique comes into play a lot if you aren't paring it with another machine. I think it's worth differentiating between grabbing a drum loop and grabbing someone's entire composition.

[LoopmantrA]

@ghost bazz
Aah, nah I agree with that. With harmonies and taking the entire piece of the song, that's another thing and definitely should be differentiated

[GOODMAMA]

Ummm... so if you take someone else's dope song, and copy half of it, you too have in fact created a dope song?

thats a very broad example that could apply to many songs ranging from terrible to great; but i would say whether the song is dope or not has nothing to do with how much is "copied"

you can make a dope song thats 99% someone else
and you can make a song thats 100% "original" and it sounds like trash

even the act just playing part of someone else's song, uncredited, with no alterations, can be artistic in the right musical context
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=60sQlJJFuF4

the original question was how do we 'justify' copying songs
and if were speaking legally -we can't
even if you chop the sample 100 times, any commercially sold song has to be cleared with all of its licensing

but if were just speaking about how we justify it to ourselves -i think youd be silly to pass up a dope loop just because its "too easy"

[THEGREAT]

I don't like just looping .. i think it stems from the Puff Daddy style of straigjt lifting loops with no alteration.

Now ..

The way Madlib does it .. i can respect .

Personally i've always been a fan of taking sounds and mashing up .. so it's almost a new signature .. Pete Rock , Preemo .

A good flip to me is making the source material unrecognisable in a respectful manner ( just preference )

Or using bits that made it difficult to pinpoint but also maintaining familiarity .. the " where do i know that from .. " brain teaser that has people guessing and racking their brain for hours after.

THERE ARE MANY WAYS . and i like what MF Doom did with Sade on Doomsday . Perfect example of loop perfection

[Green Dutch]

I like both styles of beat making. Some loops have drums already in them they just need some chopping. Sometimes its hard to layer your own shit over them. When I do my tapes I try and stick a couple natural loops in there for a different sound. When its passed thru the 202 it gets funky so I don't mind it so much. Not a fan of just some atmospheric loop with no drums though. Sometimes its dope, but its not my cup of tea.

[gis_sweden]

This thread came to my mind after having done this beat…
https://soundcloud.com/gis_sweden/spaceloopsstbb680
First, I made my loops and “LO-FIed” them. I added drums (kick, snare and cowbell). Needed drums to get the compression to work nice. And yes, some “space voices”. Done. If you find a nice loop, use it. I think you should add something… Its a homage to a nice track