What's the point?

[Sharris]

As you can see this forum is filled with all sorts of people....... we are all very different

honestly there is only so far a person is going to push their equipment in that particular genre before they deviate from the form altogether

It’s completely understandable if hip hop isn’t your thing. But to say equipment can only be pushed so far when making hip hop is confusing to me, especially knowing how wide and vast hip hop is.... so many styles. Hey create your own style of hip hop & push that shit! There are no rules. All the above statement tells me is you have either never made a hip hop beat or are just not very good at it. Not trying to be a bitch, totally fine if you can't or never have, but hip hop can be pushed just as far as any other genre. This isn’t opinion this is fact. Just depends on the producer/beat maker. If you have the skills & the creativity there is no limit no matter what genre you make. Another example.......if you create your music live, no quantize, no programming, everything made live? You're pushing the equipment, that's for sure. Using it like an instrument.

With respects to new tips & tricks. YUBA wasn’t talking about hip hop. This is an sp forum. The majority of sp’s are old. This is what he meant. New tricks are not always being discussed due to the fact that these are older machines and if you do a search you will find your answer. If you don’t? Start a thread. A lot of helpful people on this forum. Music promotion site? Music is only promoted in the your music section. But I get where you’re comin from, not a lot of action in the other sections (except the ARENA, feel free to join a battle & see what this forum is really about).

I'll be completely honest, I took your post as judgemental & almost like you wanted to start trouble. You mention you have been reading this forum, you know it is filled with people that make hip hop & then you bash the genre. Just sayin. You have a right to say whatever you want….as you can see a lot of people do around here But if you don’t find anything useful in this forum why join? Personally, when I first started, I read forums for a few years prior to joining 1 & only joined the forums that I was interested in. For example I have a lot of Korg products, but I am not a member of their forum. I can read it all I want. No point in joining unless I want to interact with the people on the forum. And since we all make nothing but hip hop, which can’t be pushed very far, there are no tricks & tips for you, this is a music promotion site filled with kung fu beats.....why are you here? Genuine question

[SMUDGE]

Hi Ghost Bazz and Sharris,
Nah I never got into Nas. That era of east coast hip hop and how it transitioned into the millennium was pretty much a turn off, and I don't think they added much to what was already laid down by NWA family and PE. I remember hearing that first Tribe Called Quest album and thought the production was decent but kinda puny sounding. I've had to play alot of hip hop for a living, all the different scenes within the genre, and nobody ever topped what the dudes I mentioned brought to the table IMO. It all just sounded the same and even looked the same as far as artwork, which I found funny. Either it was all dudes with baby mustaches and aviator glasses or it was Rainbow Brite meets JJ Walker looking stuff. One thing I can say about DJing for strippers, and you guys might find this interesting considering the sub-topic: the girls that danced to standard hip hop made a ton more money and were much hotter than the girls that danced to the indie lo-fi stuff. I don't know what it was. The standard hip hop girls would get their hair done, work out, fake boobs, lips etc. Not the lo-fi indie girls. Most of them were fatties with half finished tattoos for the most part. I was there to make money, so I noticed. LOL

Ghost Bazz, I also like Geto Boys and Scarface. Master P and Silk the Shocker and that Dirty South stuff had its moments too, but those older guys I mentioned have already said it all as far as I'm interested in hearing. It's been educational fellas. Thanks for your input.

[ghost bazz]

I also like Geto Boys and Scarface. Master P and Silk the Shocker and that Dirty South stuff had its moments too, but those older guys I mentioned have already said it all as far as I'm interested in hearing. It's been educational fellas. Thanks for your input.

Yeah, I really liked that era of Southern hip hop as well. Scarface’s prod is pretty sick. I would add Goodie Mob & OutKast to that list.

The other stuff is interesting. I went to a music conference about 10 years ago where Hank Shocklee & 9th Wonder talked and did Q&A’s. Shit was fascinating. The thing that stuck most from what Hank said was how he would always include 1 sound that was really annoying, or stuck out and clashed w the rest of the track to make the beat grind into the listeners mind. 9th was really defensive for some reason. Think someone offended him somehow cause he was really short w all his responses.

[Sharris]

Reading my post back I see I misunderstood you abit Smudge....I still stand by what I said but I can understand what you're saying

Question: What is your definition of hip hop? Anyone else want to chime in on their opinion too? I'm havin a hard time answering it. I'll think of something, like the use of drum breaks (seeing how this was ALL that was used when hip hop began) & since it was all that was used, I guess it isn't hip hop if you do more than jungle drum breaks. & even tho I use drum breaks & have learned the art of juggling, I don't think they are required for a beat to be considered hip hop.

Music is constantly evolving, so I see what you mean in a way..... if we follow the rules of hip hop from the 70's & 80's it's basic....if we do exactly as they do it would be the same.....we can only do so much to push our equipment making older hip hop. But to me that isn't "hip hop" It's hip hop from the 70's & 80's... a very very tiny section of hip hop... part of the culture.....so don't get me wrong...I'm not THAT old but born in 79 & have loved hip hop since 85.....& the culture is important to me. But music needs to evolve in someway. & I still consider a lot of newer music to be true to hip hop. Of course these are my opinions not facts, just tryin to create discussion I admit there is a lot of hip hop out there I'm not a fan of & might be pushin it callin it hip hop, but I think there is still new hip hop.

[Danswift]

It’s completely understandable if hip hop isn’t your thing. But to say equipment can only be pushed so far when making hip hop is confusing to me, especially knowing how wide and vast hip hop is.... so many styles. Hey create your own style of hip hop & push that shit! There are no rules. All the above statement tells me is you have either never made a hip hop beat or are just not very good at it. Not trying to be a bitch, totally fine if you can't or never have, but hip hop can be pushed just as far as any other genre. This isn’t opinion this is fact. Just depends on the producer/beat maker. If you have the skills & the creativity there is no limit no matter what genre you make. Another example.......if you create your music live, no quantize, no programming, everything made live? You're pushing the equipment, that's for sure. Using it like an instrument.

At last,someone talking some sense up in this motherfucker.

+1 Sharris..you nailed it.

[symatic]

well... .this got interesting didn't it?!?!?

for the Hip-Hop question - i tihnk it's easy to get distracted by the dominant tempo and sounds of hip-hop that you hear from mainstream sources, and even the larger underground labels playing more boom-bap type sounds.
but remember that the early days were all about mixing styles genres, getting everyone together, taking risks and finding breaks on ANYTHING, talking heads, james brown, sesame street, christian folk.... whatever.

theres breaks and samples ALL OVER, we know this. Hip Hop for me is the act of putting them all together and making something new and putting it out in the community.

So i guess in one way that makes this a hip hop forum, but in another it totally sidesteps the idea of Hip Hop if you're defining it as "mid-tempo beats with raps on".


as for what the point of this forum is - well, Community is one important thing. when I first joined, it was the only place I could share and learn, before I found other nerds in 3D life to chill with as well.

since coming back the other day, I have learned a few useful tricks already that i didnt know when I first had a SP. like the Mute trick - great ! and the quick chopping thing - i use it every day now!

back in the day it was here I learned the Flying Lotus Trick.... genius!

and I was also really into Dibia$e when I joined (still am!) and it was great to see him contributing, battling, commenting, and putting up links to what was going on in his area.
I can't find it now but there was a great vid of him rockin the SP at a thrift market or something, rocking "in between the sheets" samples.... damn that shit inspired me!

[Kegeratorz]

I don't consider what I do hip hop at all. Play guitar and drop bass and drums over it. I don't care what others do with there SP's, I love my 404 for what it does for me.

[SMUDGE]

Hey dudes,
Thanks for taking my initial question seriously, because I really appreciate what this and other tech forums have provided me. Other forums have less "personalities" though and I was wondering about the direction and point of SP-Forums today. I have a genuine interest in these things, and you all have informative perspectives.

I think maybe you guys are confusing a couple of things though.
I wasn't making the connection that because the tech knowledge on here has been reduced to a trickle that that is the result of hip hop having painted itself into a corner 20+ years ago. I was really wondering if all the self-promotion on this site, much but not all of which just happens to be hip hop based, had anything consciously to do with the tech knowledge drying up, or if that was just a coincidence.

Here's my point - I mean this the nicest way possible because I love the idea of DIY music of all genres (even if the limitations of some of the genres, especially sub-genres which seem kind of made up most of the time, make it all sound the same. Great, have fun! Who cares! LOL),
but I hate to break it to those to whom this applies: you guys aren't a cross-section of the hip hop industry, which is why you couldn't possibly be the cause of the hip hop genre hitting the wall on the tech end. I can say with near absolute certainty that the people on this forum are amateur musicians with no impact on the genre, many (but not all) of whom make hip hop on their Roland samplers, so you might be a cross-section of that if anything. So to reiterate, and I think it is bizarre to have to do this LOL, the members of SP-Forums are not responsible for the stagnation of the hip hop industry, unless you count in an extremely peripheral way what you guys might support financially $$$.

But let's face it, there is only so much one can add to the form, which doesn't have to be a bad thing since personally I'm fine listening to the same old rap albums. To my logic it follows that there are just so many tricks one is going to do with their equipment to make music of that specific genre. And I'd agree with a previous poster that sample based music has less wiggle room than other types music. Why else would you see vintage and new MPCs, vintage SPs, and vintage and new drum machines in the studios of modern pro hip hop acts? Why else would the vintage gear market be exploding the way it is? It's not because hip hop people are finding new ways to use old gear and they have to snatch it up before someone else can get it and steal their ideas.

Better yet, why else would Roland re-invent the wheel with the SP-404A? It ain't to break new ground on the tech end, and it ain't to break new ground on the music end, pro or amateur.

Here's something to think about. When Aerosmith and Run DMC did Walk This Way or when Anthrax and PE did Bring the Noise, they weren't pushing the form. Like em or hate em, they were novelty rap songs, definitely not ground breaking and not a new genre of music. The visual might have been cool to see black weirdos and white weirdos getting along making music, but there was nothing groundbreaking musically there, not even in terms of sub-genre. When you had bands from RHCP & FNM to Limp Bizkit & Linkin Park, they weren't pushing the form either. That stuff might have been labelled rap-rock that year (because again it was a novelty), but no one could say any of those guys broke new ground and created something new, or that the vocal styles had a meaningful impact on the actual music writing. They simply white boy rapped over rock music. That's all it was. Rock music. (An aside, those bands aren't even called "rap-rock" in modern terms. Generally they're just labelled rock if you look at radio formats.)

The same applies to hip hop. No new ground being broken, really. You can have a guy in a cowboy hat or bring in some opera singer to warble, you can have Rainbow Brite meets JJ Walker or a guy in a mask, we all know when it's hip hop and when it ain't. Just like we all know when it's rock and when it ain't. Etc.

Another thing guys, I don't mind telling you what I've listened to or what I think about music, and I like to hear your perspectives as well, but honestly I only listen to a few artists of any genre at any real frequency. I've heard a ton of musicians of all genres but have heard very few real artists. I gravitate to those and I ignore the imitations. I do think it's funny that not some but ALL the pro hip hop guys want to call themselves "artists" when if you look at it with any intellectual honesty hip hop is absolutely the most limited music genre of all. Even more limited than some old dude plucking away the blues on a one-string guitar. This is quantifiable with an understanding of mathematics and physics.

++++++
{I'll throw this one out since I've yet to contribute anything on the tech end. I see threads complaining about the loop recorder on the 555. If you slave that bad boy to an external MIDI source and boost the input you'll have no problems whatsoever. That's one reason why I mentioned SP/other gear combos earlier.}

Thanks guys. Really grateful for what this forum had provided. Love it.

[Sharris]

I don't consider what I do hip hop at all. Play guitar and drop bass and drums over it. I don't care what others do with there SP's, I love my 404 for what it does for me.

I like that point of view.
& I think sp's are great for musicians. Like you for example..... you can record yourself jammin out on guitar, add drums, bass....... & Digitone Plus the fact that an sp can be used like an instrument (Digitone seems that way too).

I would say I make like 90% hip hop, but even some of the stuff that I might call hip hop kind of strays from the genre a bit I guess. Sometimes I'm all over the place, but I love to experiment & when I create I’m not thinking “I’m going to make hip hop”. I just create. I follow the sound & my heart. AAWWW

but remember that the early days were all about mixing styles genres, getting everyone together, taking risks and finding breaks on ANYTHING, talking heads, james brown, sesame street, christian folk.... whatever.
theres breaks and samples ALL OVER, we know this. Hip Hop for me is the act of putting them all together and making something new and putting it out in the community.

That is 1 thing I love about making sample based hip hop. Mixing styles/genres. Taking old music and making something new & different with it.....yet keeping the essence of the old.
I also love using sounds & songs that I consider UGLY & flippin it into something I find beautiful. I love that challenge. But sometimes keepin a bit of the UGLY in it can make it interesting as well.

as for what the point of this forum is - well, Community is one important thing. when I first joined, it was the only place I could share and learn, before I found other nerds in 3D life to chill with as well.

Yes! Community. The sp forum was the first forum I joined, it was the only forum I felt comfortable joining as the people seemed to be really chill & helpful. It seemed to be more artists, people that are passionate about this w/o dollar signs in their eyes. I eventually joined the MPC forum, there are some cool people over there too, just had a better all around vibe with the sp forum. Met some amazing people because of this forum.

[Sharris]

I was really wondering if all the self-promotion on this site, much but not all of which just happens to be hip hop based, had anything consciously to do with the tech knowledge drying up, or if that was just a coincidence.

It could be a coincidence......but I think the tech knowledge drying up is the reason this forum isn't as active as it used to be. & sometimes I wonder if the reason this forum isn't very active is all the new users only use their sp's to effect their DAW music (nothing wrong with it, but they probably don't go as deep into their sp's when just using it for effects, so no need to learn more about it).

I hate to break it to those to whom this applies: you guys aren't a cross-section of the hip hop industry, which is why you couldn't possibly be the cause of the hip hop genre hitting the wall on the tech end. I can say with near absolute certainty that the people on this forum are amateur musicians with no impact on the genre, many (but not all) of whom make hip hop on their Roland samplers

What makes you think any of us think this way & what was the point of this comment? Majority might be amateur, but not all. & who cares.
How long have you been making music man? & what "genre" do you make since it seems labels are important to you? I hate to break it to you, but reading your posts it seems like you don't even make music. Seems like your posts are just full of judgments on others music. Just the vibe I'm getting. A lot of talk about commercial music & hip hop of the old, but nothing about actually making it.

So to reiterate, and I think it is bizarre to have to do this LOL, the members of SP-Forums are not responsible for the stagnation of the hip hop industry, unless you count in an extremely peripheral way what you guys might support financially $$$.

Yea, very bizzare that you have to do it. What members of the sp-forums stated they are responsible for the, in your opinion, the stagnation of the hip hop industry? The comments I'm seeing are members stating it is NOT stagnate. And they are passionate about this, so the get a little....... passionate.

To my logic it follows that there are just so many tricks one is going to do with their equipment to make music of that specific genre.

No, there are only so many tricks one can do with their equipment if they are only allowed to make hip hop that was made from 1982-1984.

And I'd agree with a previous poster that sample based music has less wiggle room than other types music.

I don't agree. How much experience do you have with MAKING sample based music? In my opinion, I feel like it's almost limitless. It's like having all the instruments & sounds in the world & you can do whatever you want with them.

I also enjoy sampling myself playing instruments or jamming out on a keyboard, then taking it further by manipulating the samples. Still sample based....even if it's sampling myself at times (off topic).

Personally what I consider to be art & LIMITLESS is........... MUSIC. In general. When it comes to music I'm extremely open. & I hear so much amazing music...amazing hip hop.....
But I love music. I love hip hop.

[ghost bazz]

@Smudge

Dude... you are 100% wrong on so many fronts. I'm not going to dissect your post, but as a short response I'll say this... and it applies to what you've said about hip hop, sample-based music, and gear. I'll leave the rest alone, although you're really starting to sound like a fuckin hater.

You're not taking the aspect of sound design into consideration, which is one of the areas that the SP's rule beyond all other samplers, due to the strength and variety of effects. Say you chop any instrumental into 1-shots... could be clean, but for greater nuance, let's say it's from a unique combo of layered instruments. From there you can then design the resulting chops into other unique 1-off sounds... an infinite possibility of results can be achieved. If you know the effects well, you can guide the results in certain directions with different levels of precision. It's also fun to experiment and get random stuff. Throw on any sound altering effect... resample... resample with delay... reverse the result and adjust start/end points... resample with live knob tweaking... on and on.

Then, on the topic of combo'ing gear, take the resulting 1-shots you've just created and sample them into a chromatic sampler, like an e-mu e-series or one of the akai rack samplers. Then key map a full spread of new sounds to layer, filter, etc. Pitch shit up dramatically... pitch shit down dramatically. You are literally working with a completely unique palette. You can then experiment in any genre and come up with new stuff.

I get the feeling your limited view is reflecting limited knowledge, particularly on the hip hop side of the discussion. I don't know if you've listened to enough shit to know what's really going on out there... and what has already gone on for that matter.

[SMUDGE]

Hey Ghost Bazz,
Don't jump to conclusions my friend.
All those techniques sound awesome, but if you're doing all that and still making hip hop, well, you're still making hip hop. You're not adding anything new to the form if it's still primarily 4/4 sample music condusive to rapping. I don't care if you're an amateur or a pro in that regard. Still plain ol hip hop. By you I mean the collective you, not you specifically Ghost Bazz. Without knowing you, you specifically Ghost Bazz doing all that you described is a wonderful thing if it makes you happy, assuming you aren't some creep like an animal abuser etc that doesn't deserve to be happy. How hatefully do I have to put it? LOL

It's interesting that the 404A didn't add much in the realm to tech info to the SP-Forum. I like Roland, but I think that speaks volumes about Roland's expectations for their target market.

[SMUDGE]

Hey dudes,
I just thought of this and jumped back on here.
I know there are non-primary English speakers on here so I didn't want to blame it on a lack of reading retention..
I am referring to art form AKA the form. Not the "forum".
I would never describe someone as if they aren't adding anything new to the "forum". I don't care what anyone adds to the "forum" as far as their music is concerned, and that might as well be my point.
Form, not "Forum". Not a missprint.
Thanks!

[Sharris]

Great post Ghost Bazz.

What's funny is SMUDGE in his pants (sorry couldn't resist, feel free to retaliate) says in order to make hip hop you can't push your equipment without deviating from the genre & there isn't a lot of wiggle room when making sampled based music. But when you give him an example of how far you can push even just an sp while working with samples.....basically explaining how limitless it can be....... Smudge calls it plain old hip hop.

Ghost Bazz doesn't make plain old anything. Check out some of his music....like Falling Man's Parachute..... not only is it amazing, it was a beat battle with challenges involved. Blew my mind.

But I can guarantee it doesn't fit Smudgins definition of hip hop. Fits mine.

I think of hip hop as a way a life. Not music made during a certain time period.

[SMUDGE]

Hi Sharris,
Don't get me wrong buddy, but I think it might be a reading retention problem after all.
I was speaking of the limitations of the genre in the collective you, not you meaning specifically Ghost Bazz. I haven't listened to Ghost Bazz so I wouldn't have an opinion as to his hip hop cred one way or another. However, if he did everything he described and still made hip hop he wouldn't be breaking any ground in the form (not "forum") though. However he would still be an amateur and it wouldn't affect the form (not "forum") in the slightest which is exactly why I wouldn't bother pointing it out to the gentleman.
Thanks for allowing me to clear that up.
SMUDGEY (Form not "Forum") WUDGY