for humans anyway, . feel free to correct me but can you hear 9 million gigahertz over the human hearing range. it may be a little extreme, but i think it sounds better than 44100.

not shure how many of you watch your sprctrograph, but if you do, try downsampling to 22.5 and then back to 44100, let me know what you hear.
look at the spectrograph too. it will cut out over half of your entire sound. the stuff you can't hear.

If you have the option to hold more frequencies, why wouldn't you? Are you in a situation that you need a longer sampling time or smaller files?

I feel that even if you can't tell when those frequencies are playing, they're still a part of the dynamics your music has. If you play a single frequency in a room, there are harmonics created by the space that are lower and higher than the original frequency. If you play higher than you can hear, is it hard to imagine that maybe the harmonics of that note would be audible to you?

I'm not saying that you can hear them while recording/mixing, but maybe there is a play where your music is played and it adds extra audible dynamics.

yeah im just pretending to bve innovative, it has nothing to do with sample time or file size, as i was upsampling back to 44100. the reason this grabbed my attention is because my snares shoot a straight line of energy that covers the entire audible spectrum. from the ground all the way to space, then I went to chill out and listen to my new record and the effin neighbors start slamming their car doors to my beat. yeah they did it enough times for me to know it wassnt coincidence, this isnt the first time neighbors do little things like this, like really. when you have a problem with somethinbg whatever happened to going up to the person and talking to them about it.

this is what they did last time I recorded an album, I moved the recording stuff to the basement to be a little more stealth. so im hollering vocal tracks1 in my basement for a week. this must have angered them because they would park outside with a car stereo and blast the shit out of it . different people at different times, around when I was wrapping up that album. they did it on purpose im shure but im beyond paranoias of psyco people that have nothing better to do than interfere with my work flow. but I do take into account how offensive my loudness is now. and hours of screaming. now im like fuck you! if you got a problem with how I work you gotta tell me and we can work out a solution. this baby attitude shit seems like their last resort at attempting to modify my behavour, the town im in goes on and off harrasing stalkign and terrorizing me when Im alone. the police do it too. but usually when im working on web stuff, like days and days of coding.

anyway, how that fits in with the spectrum analzyer of 22.5 khz.

i thought maybe there was something in my crack that was interupting them in their home, or distrubing them, but im using a little speaker and no longer mix or produce on my power amp. mostly bullshit. but we live in an abnormal world. and nothings normal anymore.

^ don't know about the frequency stuff ..

but getting harassed .. you should move ..either that or you've got paranoid schezaphrenia .. fuck mixing low for some other pricks convenience ( that is obvcourse if you are making the music between reasonable hours) .. used to do music sessions at a friends till early .. never complaints ..even though there probly should have been

i study lots about frequencies, radio and tape stuff. sound engineering, i think all producers should , it's one thing knowing to make great music, but its another completly different thing engineerring great sound, so theres no better time to learn. im not saying im a certified master of frequencies, but i try to learn about that stuff. sometimes i think im going nuts from the stalking crap, but i learned it's designed to make you look crazy, i would be in the mental hospital probably if not for the internet, did a google search on it about 10 years ago, turns out it happens to lots of people. keeping busy and healthy is the best way to deal with it.

Before I go into my lengthy reply I just want to say I think sound is subjective and relative. Sometimes an 8bit kick sounds perfect and other times like shit. Sometimes lo-fi degraded cassette sounds great and adds vibe and feel but I would not want to listen to a Steely Dan record that way for example. (I use SD as example of nice high quality/fidelity recording"

I believe humans can hear and/or sense frequencies far above 20KHz and far below 20Hz. When you say dynamics and mention 22.5KHz I think you are talking about sampling rate. The way it works is the more often you take samples of a sound as you convert it to digital the more faithfully it will reproduce the original sound. This is obvious when recording at 8K or 12k like many old samplers did- you hear it- high and low frequencies are gone etc. If 22.5 works for you then rock it!

Ok, tech talk time- I love this shit...

Rupert Neve talks about it in regards to his preamps and equipment having ability to replicate frequencies and timings FAR outside the range of normally accepted human hearing. (ie 20Hz to 20KHz)

"In the mid 1960s, Neve began working with Beatles producer George Martin and engineer Geoff Emerick. Neve said it was largely through Emerick that he became interested in human’s emotional response to sound.

One day Emerick called Neve to AIR Studios on Oxford Street. The engineer was unhappy with a discrepancy he was hearing between two channels on a console. After much detective work, Neve determined that one of the channels hadn’t got the correct termination on its output transformer. At 54 kHz frequency, far beyond what humans can hear at 20 kHz, Neve was astonished that Emerick could perceive the difference. He decided Emerick must be able to perceive sound in some other way. Later, Neve met and worked with the Japanese Professor Ohashi who studied how the absence of high frequencies can affect human emotions. Neve said his pursuit of high quality sound has only intensified by studying human’s emotional responses to the high frequency cutoff in compact discs, not to mention mp3s, which Neve said can lead (often without the listener realizing why) to frustration."

There are also the overtones of frequecies we don't hear which interact on down the line until you are in the realm of frequencies we can hear.

More info is in his manuals on his website under "A Note About Distortion"

"For example, research has shown conclusively that frequencies above 20 kHz affect the way in which humans perceive sound quality. But, long before scientific evidence emerged a substantial body of musicians and engineers knew that equipment with apparently the same technical measurements could sound very different."

Anyway this article goes into even more tech which I love starting at "Tom Borthwick: I have a 5106 console and on an Audio Precision test it goes from 5 Hz to over 150 Hz. This extended bandwidth, was it a concerted effort or just the result of good design?"
http://www.prosoundweb.com/article/prin ... upert_neve

and so on...



C

i can tell the difference by from 16 bit and 24 bit.

I can distinguish when something has been ripped off youtube.

i can tell 44.1 vs 192 k by ear, ( if it's raw )

so yeah having a fatter range is definetly noticable, one of my friends
a pro studio engineer, says the high over tones will record shiver frequencies, and then when you listen you get the shivers again, like hair standing up on your neck.

anyway, i didnt know anything about lower bands causing frustration in the listener, maybe thats why i get bugged out sometimes from working lofi. i dunno.

maybe I should add brain wave and bio feedback research to my list of aspiring pseudo sciences I study.

blah./

It is not known how inaudible harmonic content affects audible harmonic content.

Sound is physical energy, and regardless of whether we can hear it, the inaudible stuff interacts with the audible stuff.


That is all.

Sampling at 44.1khz delivers accurate audio in the human range of hearing (0-22khz or so). It's related to the Nyquist theorem. The highest frequency that can be *accurately* reproduced requires double the sampling rate. So by dropping everything down to 22.5, you pretty much cut the max frequency that can be accurately reproduced in half (0-11Khz), and introduce aliasing on those higher freqs.

Also if you want to hear what happens with high frequencies and have a 404SX, create a test tone that's say 21khz, and copy it to the sd card. Fire up the SX, and hit the pad with the tone. If you've got shit ears like me, you won't hear anything... it'll be silent. Now load up another sample on another pad and get it looping. Set all the pads to run thru the compressor.. max out the compressor settings.. and hit the "silent pad"... it'll duck the audio on everything else hard even tho someone like me can't hear the tone play on the pad. I alway trip off that because, obviously something I can't sense is really there, evident when I push the button. Now throw it in the DJFX, pitch down, and the tone will reveal itself. BTW that test will only work on the SX.. the 404/303 convert the samples and end up f'ing up the tone.

Anyway.. sorry geek mode.

Another example is mixing. If you use hi pass filters on everyhting besides things that actually have frequencies below 100-10KHz (I have sweepable filters) your mix will sound clearer and feel better.
If you leave all the low inaudible content on each track it builds up and causes muddiness.
I had to figure this out when I bought a Neve pre and all it had was gain, trim, and sweepable HPF. I was like there MUST be a reason he put it on there! (Portico 5012) and that is when i found out about cutting away ultra low frequencies unless needed like kick drum, bass, etc.
You sweep the filter until you hear it affect the sound then back it off a little.
This thread could go on for ages on this techie stuff but I think it is very interesting myself!

I also like the 32KHz sample rate on my Korg ES-1 but at other times the coloration and lack of resolution really bothers me- all about context and personal choice.

C

I think it is psycho acoustics, anything above the hearing limit of ears.
The tabla drum is tuned with psycho acoustics, .

and also If you need to record at twice the sample rate, then working with 44100, shouldnt you be recording at 96 K ? To keep your 44.1 k work from aliasing ?

Yes 44.1 has aliasing- lots- from http://www.indiana.edu/~emusic/etext/digital_audio/chapter5_rate.shtml:

"In reproducing high-quality audio, there are two solutions to the problem of aliasing caused by trying to represent frequencies above the Nyquist frequency. The first is to band-limit the frequencies allowed to enter the system. The second is to have a higher sampling rate, thereby increasing the frequency range before aliasing occurs. In reality, both of these have been addressed by current digital audio systems.

An anti-aliasing filter is placed in front of an analog-to-digital converter to prevent frequencies above the Nyquist frequency from ever being sampled. So far, existing technology has not afforded us a true "brick wall" filter that completely eliminates unwanted frequencies without having any effect on those in the "legal" range. These is still a rolloff curve that attenuates frequencies closest to the cutoff."

Sometimes these filters are what are giving your OG404 or whatever some of their unique sound.

I have read many times why some guys love 192KHz because it just sounds so much more natural and true. We are just at a point where the avg distribution format (mp3) and consumer apathy or insensitivity to quality are not changing things. As hard drives got less expensive I have ripped a lot of my CDs to FLAC but before that I had to use wma or ogg to get best size/sound quality trade off. I had like 3.5GB hard drive to work with back then!

Maybe one day we will be able to have 100Tb chips in our phones with music collections of 1THz sample rate audio files of all our songs. I still don't mind the tape hiss on Bowie's 'Hunky Dory"- it would just be nice to have the choice. That is why I like the 404SX, I can get clean/clear easily and add vibe/noise after if I want though it is an extra step or so.

Saw this at bottom of that link- funny- "Why did the CD standard settle on 44.1K rather than say 48K? Rumor has it that video equipment already had clocks that ran at 44.1K that could be integrated into the first CD players. I have also heard that Herbert von Karajan complained to Sony that Beethoven's 9th would not fit on the early CD specifications. By lowering the rate to 44.1K, 74 minutes could be recorded onto a CD using 16-bit samples, enough to do the trick.'

If you are using a DAW, and you set your rate to 96khz, the filters on many plugins will perform better with less aliasing. Another way this is accomplished is oversampling.

Also you sample at twice the highest frequency needed. We supposedly hit the upper limits near 20khz (some folks can supposedly get a little higher), so to capture everything that a human can hear pretty accurately, you sample at 44.1hkz or higher.

A dog can get up to 40Khz hearing wise, so if your dog made tracks it might sample at 88.2hkz so it could hear everything in it's range with some level of accuracy.

still think it's kinda overkill heading north of 48hkz.. I dump to cassette, so I'm killing high freqs all day anyway, lol.

but then when you bring it back to digital, I find the tape hiss that sits at very high frequencies can get 'crunched' and add new noise at 44.1

it also depends on which device i use to bounce my cassette to. sp sounds dif from my pc, even at the same sample rates. its hardly noticeable though.

so what helps is...heh...mixdown from my tascam to my pc in 96k