Sampling

[Unfolding]

Hey Om & Greene!

Om- That beat tips book looks interesting, think I'll order a copy soon. The dude who wrote that looks like he's thought about sampling the same way I'm trying to... After rambling about this kind of stuff the other week to my girlfriend she told me to write a PHD on sampling! But nah, not at that level yet. All I've been doing is overthinking how to use the SP-606 over the past 6 years.

Greene- ah man, pity about the SP not working with your Apple operating system! Unfortunately the 606 doesn't work with any 64bit OS. Korakios did find a way to trick the 606 to work recent versions of Windows (running in 32bit mode). Remember that the 606 has been a discontinued instrument for a while & was only made in 2004, 9 years ago! Roland probably didn't sell enough of them to really consider upgrading the 606's operating system or make it compatible with next-generation computers.

Most electronic instruments don't allow the user to record their output as a finished track for a few reasons. These days its mostly because mixing & mastering is a complex process, previously it was that & recording digitally took more memory than was affordable for entry & mid-level instruments. Gotta tell you mate, the SP-606 is a beginner sampler. Which is fine, it's a great instrument for what it is.

Saw the thread where you put yours up for sale & said you considering getting an MPC next. MPCs are mid-range to pro level gear. As such they're really complicated compared to the SP-606. Seriously if you're stuggling with the SP, at least try the MPC you're after in store for an hour or so (or until they tell you they're closing for the night). Hopefully the sales assistant can help you with your questions.

Look, I'm not gonna tell you not to sell the SP. Just be ready to get confused all over again trying to learn the workflow of what you buy next. I've got an MPC500 & have struggled with it for years. Admittedly it runs the Akai OS & apparently MPCs running JJOS are heaps nicer to use. You might find a JJOS MPC easier than the SP-606, but you'll still need to bend your brain into understanding it.

Sorry mate, had to mention those things in case you weren't aware.

Real time recording is hard to do right from the start. Being just that little bit late/early hitting a note with quantize on will sound BAD on playback (as you know). No harm in sticking to the step sequencer for now.

To practice for real time:
- Just play a song you like that has some good drums & try playing that beat on the SP as the song plays. Bang those pads!
- Turn on the SP's metronome (in the menu button's screens) & start playing drums in time to the beeps. Start out slow & hit pads in time to the beeps. Same as sequencing in step mode. Alternate between kick & snare on the beeps. Hit the hihat on the beeps & halfway between beeps.

^Yeah practice sucks, but to sound like a jaded music teacher/dad it'll pay off in the long run. As Om said, it's great you haven't given up on it just yet. Quite a few folks do & miss out on some great stuff. Again- check the Jeremy Ellis videos I linked. Right here so you don't have to go looking: http://www.youtube.com/user/jeremyellismusic

Don't forget to check out the microscope sequencer editor as well (at the pattern screen hit F2 then F1). It's a great way to fix up bum notes when you've used the real time editor. Basically-
01-01-00 = 1st quarter note of a bar
01-02-00 = 2nd quarter note
XX-XX-48 = a quarter note

Simple beats are fine! Now you've got an idea on how to sample & sequence get down to making beats. Soon it'll start to click & when you get that first loop+drums that sounds nice start messing with bits & pieces... Chop the sample, change the drum pattern, add effects etc. It's all good. Don't be shy if you've got any more questions about the 606 either

[Om_Audio]

Great post from Unfolding again. I really agree that an MPC is going to be same complicated learning process all over again and IMO less fun. I would suggest however that you might just want to get a 404SX or similar and try that. The limitations and simplicity can be good.

Anyway, have fun whatever you decide!

C

PS- I clicked the Jeremy Ellis link and laughed- I was like "are you trying to make him quit forever??"
I'm sure you meant the How To videos but the current one that comes up is him like playing crazy beats on the fly two handed. Hah!

[User_that_left]

Yes, i consider this beattips book as a good learning tool too, but like i allready said, there is a lot of history in it too, it's not only about beatmaking and production. It is so complete and easy written. I read like half of it now, maybe... I only read at work if i'm bored lol.

Well, i wanted to sell my 606 because i was dissapointed to net get the things right. that's why i wanted to sell it. so i did not play with it for like a whole day, and then, after turning it on, the drumpattern was made like in 3 minutes. it even sounded not that bad. i applied nice 0db crossings to the drums, added a hihat on every 1/8 and played different loops over it. drums (kick and snares) were made in note step recording, the loop in realtime. which made me try like 20 times before the loop was in tune. After i tried to vary the drums, but this totally destroyed what i ve made before, i could not get a nice rearrangement to them.
Lucky i received my new headphones that day. Good headphones make a difference too. before i had f***ing beats by dre, now i ve got audio technia ATH M50, they were like half of the beats' price, but much better quality

Loops i like to take out of different folk music styles. folk music has clear, organic instruments. Is this a good idea? or is it easier to take the loop out of the song where i took the drums from?

now about recording, well like you said the 606 is a beginner sampler, and beginners do often not have professional mixing/mastering equipment, so it would have been a nice idea back in 2004 to add a recorder to the 606. how easy would it be to share sounds?! now i need to change my wiring, get new cables, get new software only to record a sound which isn't in good quality...

To the mpc: i think the MPC are classical hiphop instruments, i wanted to buy a 2500, or a 2000. i never used to play an mpc, but i looks like hell of fun. for me, the mpc's pad look so "hit-me"-like ^^ 500/renaissance/fly i don't like, they are to modern and no more standalones. But what about that JJOS?! is that another os that was made by someone else than akai? never heard about it until now.

To the Jeremy Ellis link, well i think it will take me half of lifetime to be able to play as good as he does in this video. for me a pete rock beat would already be a success. Indeed i don't consider making modern hiphop, i m more into that old school stuff and some of the so-called new school hiphop (dr dre, busta rhymes, ice cube................)
what do you think about psycho realm beats?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UIMeK9IH3Pc

ANy more questions?! for sure i have, but first i should practice some more of what you told me, it really helped me. I knew some things out of books/internet etc, but some questions can't be answered by a book, or a youtube tutorial.

Indeed, i want to really thank you Unfolding, for all the time it took to write those lines

[User_that_left]

Om
Why do you think i should get a 404sx? it has no big display and only 12 pads like the mpc500 does too. i prefer having 16 pads, 4kicks, 4 snares, 4 hihats, an 4 free pads for resampled kicks, snares, hihats
i don't think i should buy a 404, it's to new for my setup )) (old school style), i should get an SP1200 <3, mpc 2000xl, korg ms20 and a roland tr808
(on 21st december is my birthday, for those searching for a nice present hahaha) ))

[Unfolding]

Om- Ha! Yeah maybe I should've done a better job with that link... This is where I was thinking of: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oEpLD6vD43E

I always stop Youtube videos from auto-playing, didn't realise that would be video...

Maybe my mind works the wrong way (I started out on Reason before moving to the SP), but I found the 606 easier to start out on because of the screen. Couldn't keep track of what function's what on the 404 without a visual reference... But yeah, the 404SX might be a good alternative as it's functions are simpler than 606 or MPC.

Greene- I'm only swinging by quickly, will respond properly soon. Just stoked to read that your workflow's coming together quicker & making sense now.

About sampling folk music- it's all good! I've sampled some folk before as well. Probably should do that more often... Listening for clear & open sounds are exactly what experienced sample-based music producers search for. You're on the right path here! Now you're starting to get my mind back on task. Thanks! Sample material is an entirely personal choice, so if folk works for you- awesome! Personally I love sampling the quiet/restrained bits in heavy metal songs. Not the loud heavy riffing bits, but the reflective psychedelic stuff like Planet Caravan.

Anyway, gotta bail halfway through this reply. Sorry dude!

[User_that_left]

No problem, was nice to see the other video too, even if it wasn't the one you meant to show the finger drumming video you've already suggested once to me too, looks and sounds good, but i can imagine it is difficult to learn.

I had the idea with rock/heavy metal too, because before i was totally into hiphop culture, i was a punk, listening to sex pistols and german punk bands, today i would like to combine my old style with my new style... but therefor i need to practice more, a lot more. i think maybe sampling folk music may be the easiest because of it's clear sounds and mostly slow tempo. Sampling rock/metal/punk is more complicated, because the usually have more instruments playing at the same time (bassguitar, el quitar, drums)... you need to know the song well, to find a single clear sound in it.
could you share some local folkmusic with me. Whereever you come from, however your folkmusic sounds there, i like them all, if they are arab style with flutes, african drums, scottish pipes (don't know it's real name in english), or even piano or brass instruments.

So, i ll get back to the 606 now, i need to play now
waiting for some new folkmusic
cheers

[Unfolding]

now about recording, well like you said the 606 is a beginner sampler, and beginners do often not have professional mixing/mastering equipment, so it would have been a nice idea back in 2004 to add a recorder to the 606. how easy would it be to share sounds?! now i need to change my wiring, get new cables, get new software only to record a sound which isn't in good quality...

True story! Another reason why Roland didn't put a recording suite in the SPs- to make you buy their stand alone recorders. Anything digital these days will do the job. I'm using a beaten up Boss BR-600, it works like a charm too. 2nd gear like that shouldn't be expensive or hard to find.

To the mpc

The 500 is a standalone MPC, it was designed to be an alternative to the SP-404. But it's nowhere near as cool. Pity. The pads are nicer though, having bigger pads makes playing them a lot easier.

Yep, JJOS is a non-Akai MPC operating system. This is getting off topic, but the JJOS looks nice: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-AOZyiPUsaM

Back to Pete Rock- have you seen this? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z73CcodfT_w
^This is pretty much what I do with loops. It's nothing fancy, loads of people chop a loop over 16 pads & just tap it into the sequencer. Try it out! The last beat he shows off has another nice way to lay out sounds on the SP. Minimal drums (only 3 pads!), use a few classy looped samples & place them across the rest of the pads. Use the drums in the original samples to keep the rhythm clear. Use the dedicated drum pads to accentuate the rhythm (to make it boom bap). Where Pete Rock gets it right is his sample choices, the techniques are all quite simple there.

Back to folk music: mate there's so much out there!
Laura Jean: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Iq54T6Ro6U <- used this a few years back for a song I'm super proud of (its no longer online), seen her a play a few times as well. Her voice is perfect live.
Skipping Girl Vinegar: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ma69w94VAro
Tin Sparrow: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q1v9Wr2W50k
Tinawiren: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uMUuuW13Fp8 <- not where I'm from, been meaning to sample them for a while (even if they're not really folk)
Even though its rare (& expensive), just anything from Turkey in the 60s-70s-80s sounds incredible. Same with Japanese enka.

*Edit* Just found the song that samples Laura Jean. The drums in this are from Isaac Hayes (I think) & Neurosis (a metal band), I played the bass & melodica.
[mp3]http://sp-forums.com/download/file.php?id=1770[/mp3]

[User_that_left]

Hello
Yes, i think i will record sooner or later thru my Line In on the Macbook. Or should i consider getting a USB interface? For practise use the Line IN will surely be enough, no? This would make it lots easier to explain where i'm stuck now.

how should i say, i'm getting my drums nicely arranged, i got my loops cut precise but as far as i mix them both, it sounds like a big mess up... They are in tune, but the melodic part doesn't match with the drum patterns. don't really know why (no tempo differences between melodic part and drums). Difficult to explain in words...
This should be a problem that practice and experience that will solve this problem.

Now, how about making variations into the drumloop? are there so-clled "rules" about how and where variations may sound the best? i tried playing random pads just like that but this lead again to a mess.
For variations, should i only change melodic part? or change the drumpattern too?

indeed you told me to sample "push it along - ATCQ" but i could not get warm with this song, so i only took out the drums in the beginning part. Melodic parts i sampled from other artists (big shug - it just don't stopped/ Beatnuts - Beatnuts forever/ Beatnuts - Angel of Death)
I prefer taking beats i know, it makes it lots easier to get it looped without sounding like a loop.

If you are searching for your favourite artist, about where they took their samples from, go to check www.whosampled.com
I use this regulary, you can compare the sampled beat with it's original song.

Pete Rock is a Legend, i already saw this video a few month ago, but i didn't think at it anymore, nice to watch again, and again and again
The Tin Sparrow Link you shared is nice too

I'll go to see the 606 now, c ya later
Peace

[User_that_left]

So this is my so-called instrumental
https://soundcloud.com/bushmaster_j/tagga1

And here is the drum pattern
https://soundcloud.com/bushmaster_j/stony

Share your opinions and thoughts about, i would really appreciate to get better than this. do you think this is good or bad?

cheers

[User_that_left]

Important: please share your HONEST opinion

[Om_Audio]

Unfolding- great tips about drums and samples- grabbing the individual hits from a loop you will use is always a good idea- allows you to add beats and they blend perfectly.
Great remix track- nice work!

As for folk artists- wow that is a huge genre- here are some that come to mind:
Joni Mitchell
Crosby Stills Nash and Young
Nick Drake
Simon and Garfunkel
Bob Dylan
Josh Garrels
etc.

bgreene- your beats are great! the first one is tight and no idea why you have any doubt about it. It is tight and synced w drums perfectly- good job.
The second one is just a beat- which is also fine- no issues- perfect blank canvas to start painting on.

Keep it up-
C

[Teewok]

When I first got the 606 I used to record my hi-hats in first (just a steady 1/16 pattern) at the preset 96bpm

Then I'd just have that playing while listening to samples and stuff (jazz, r and b records), and try to pitch the samples to match the hi-hats. When I found something that worked I just sampled it and recorded on a separate track to play along with the hi hats. After that I'd fine tune the bpm of the hi hits to perfectly match what u sampled... then I'd just build on the drums and that's the beat!

I don't do this anymore, but I think it's a good way to get started.

[Unfolding]

Important: please share your HONEST opinion

Wha-Wait a second... Have you been trolling this whole time? That Tagga1 loop is pure dope! Honestly it's fine! Waaaaay beyond what I was expecting to hear from a newbie. Letting the sample set the beat's swing is nice (no need to fight what works already), the way you've matched the drums to the sample sounds natural too... Best of all is the cadence in that loop is perfect. Well done!

The 2nd one's alright as just drums, personally I prefer drum sounds to not so harshly cropped but some pros like MF Doom make that kind of drum sampling work. The jazzy hihat's a nice touch as well. Just like Teewok mentioned about first making the drums & then finding a sample to match: this loop could be a good candidate for that approach (cheers for the pro-tip too, T!)

Om: Thanks for digging that Laura Jean flip! It's probably the least hip hop thing I could've posted (and I've made loads of non-hip hop beats), so it's cool when others appreciate a different angle to sample based music.

So Greene, gonna step into the arena for the next round of SP battles? Round 139's nearly up. 140 should be on in about a week.

[rageone]

Yo, first of all i made this account just to reply here (but i`ll be most probably posting elswhere also). I read the whole topic and then i checked out your beat... And WHOA! All the advice was for a good reason

I had the mpc 500 2 years ago i think, i traded it for a korg zero4 and i regreted this trade until a week ago. A week ago i traded a kaossilator pro for a sp606 and... well... yeah, i`m lovin' it

If i had the $ right now i would still switch to a mpc 2000xl for the bigger pads but beware greene - no FX on the mpc as far as i know. The mpc500 display won't show the waveform so if you also use that while chopping, it won`t be available.Also, the 500 1000, 2500 and 5000 don`t have that oldschool 16bit compression that you heard on premier's tracks and pete rock`s.
As far as i know, the Akai Pro that did the 2000s has now been bought by Numark (or N-Music - i hear many legends) and their samplers only have pads in common with the old ones
I probably wouldn`t tell the difference because i never had anything else than my old 500 but that`s what people say Don`t even bother with renaissance, fly &co as they are controllers with or without a soundcard. No computer - no music. No fun...
Also, the learning curve, from what ive seen, should not be so harsh considering that you already know your 606

Be sure to study hard befor you buy any of them

Also, i should mention that i am a gearslut (no link with the website) and i`ve been trading and playing with various synths and drum machines, etc... The best way to get used to playing them is to spend a lot of time with them. And also play along with music on the radio or whatever you listen to. Not only hiphop or music you like but also random stuff.

PS: also, it does not matter very much that it`s a beginner sampler, you can always record your 4 tracks in ableton live (or any other daw of your choice) and proceed from there if you need more effects or stuff that the SP does not do

[User_that_left]

Where should i now start answering all those posts?! lol
let's start with the first one...
Om:
Why i had doubt about this beat? well, it wasn't much work so i thought it may not be as good as it should be, but following yourr and some friends comments, y'all like it more than i do And unfortunately, i could not manage to get those 2 beats together.... Tagga1's drums where meant to play in to the other loop. After not getting it right, i took that Morcheeba beat and looped it over the drums.

Winner of Goldmedal:
i did those the opposite way, i first made the kicks and snares and then added hihats. I considered this way easier to adjust the hihats (if they are played in 1/8, 1/12, 1/16...)

Unfolding:
First of all: thank you!!!!!! without you, i may never made those beats, because i did not know how-to. you explained it to me, so now i understand the process of music production a little bit better

well, i did not change swing in any of the samples, they were recorded and sample loop edited to make good 0dB crossings (indeed this helps a lot to make sounds nicer), added some effects (i don't know if i used the effects for those recordings) and panned some pieces. (stony beat)
Tagga is only a looped sample without any changes, it has it's original bpm, no effects, nothing added, nothing was taken out. I only set the Start and End point to make it not sound like a loop anymore

Indeed, i was listening to MF Doom a few days ago, and i was impressed by his productions. i don't know why, but since i produce music on my own, my ears changed and i hear music completly different. There always is that 1,2,3,4 count counting endless in my head, or i only listen to some drums of the beat, trying to avoid other instruments, or playing music instrumentals thru the 606 and than adding some random beats during live play (unfortunately i don't record the whole session, sometimes there are dope sounds coming out)...

Now about the MPC, well i bought a 2000 now, and a Renaissance (because it only was 500€ lol). I don't consider using the MPC as sampler, but more as a drummachine because of it's pads. Sampling, editing samples and so long will be done on the 606.

Ableton Live, i have that software to but i really DON'T LIKE it!!! don't know why, but i can't handle that piece of shit, it even makes me angry using it lol it does never ever what i want it to do, or i have no output signal coming out... i finished using software! they all suck! if it is serato, ableton, fruity loops (cheaters software), reason..... i use non of them, only software i consider to use is Audacity for Line In recordings, and iTunes to playback the song before sampling them lol
my opinion about software isn't meant personally, i don't think you are a bad person only for using them

About the battle, hmm, don't know, maybe if i don't miss it.

Rageone:
Nice you are now subscribed to this forum, it is really nice, and like how you see, it's helpfull too nice you had an old mpc500, but i prefer 16 pads, 12 pads are 4 to less even if i usually don't use pad 15/16 it's always nice to have some free pads spread around thru the padpanks (for resampling it's nice, to always have a free pad on the original padbank, so you don't need to switch while playing).
i had some digital instruments too, like different midi controllers, but never could play with them like i wanted too... I'm not into that digital thing yo...
Like i once mentioned: for me best intruments are SP1200, Technics sl1200, Korg ms20, rolands tr808, MPC60... i wish they all still were produced instead of beeing like 2000€ each piece lol i'm dreaming of owning one of those one day <3 instead of the MPC i also watched for an sp1200, but so hard to find, and SOOOOO expensive that i rather take 2 to 3 mpc's for that price.
indeed, i paid 600€, which should be like 520-550$ i think), you think it's expensive?
the Renaissance was only 500€ (450$)


now, i'm heading back to the 606. there still is some work left to be done, even if you like my beats

ohh wait, first i'll go to the fridge and have a cold beer... beer makes the beats flow better
Cheers