to get that "ducking" sound do you comp the whole track or..

[admbmb]

man somebody please explain the resample method to me too...how is it not mad tedious and more time consuming than the sequencer?for real,i must be missing something...so you start with a drum pattern,or i guess some chops,either or..and i'm assuming you play those to some kind of outside rhythm source..a metronome,break record on the turntable maybe,idk...so with the drums-unless you play your whole kit in one take,which is impossible if you use multiple hits at different velocities(say 3 kicks,4 hats,3 snares,open hat,roll,etc..)u have to go back and add more layers to another resample pad multiple times just to have your drum pattern?and then you have that drum pattern on one pad,i'm assuming 4 to 8 bars,whatever---what happens when you wanna mute sounds out,or make a change up?you gotta record a whole nother pattern to another pad?and then you lay your chops over them all?or i guess you got your chops on one pad too..but what happens when you wanna change that shit up?or mute some of it?or deide you want something to delay or do one of those super dope djmfx24 stutters?so... you finally have multiple pads with your drums and chops,and then you gotta go back over all of them and play bass?i see so many of you say that the only method you use is resample,and how ill it is,and how the sequencer sucks,etc..how the hell does this not take forever?i've never really seen anyone go into depth about this..i also always see people complaining about the 404 sequencer..but i mean,it takes what, no more than a few minutes to lay down any kind of drum pattern,even if you do it in 3,4,5 runs-me-i just lay each group of sounds in one run,then repeat with another--snares,kicks,hats,etc...and you can duplicate it as many times as you want,make as many changes as you want...and once you figure out your chops,that shit takes what,a handful of seconds for a 8 bar sequence..and then you can adjust that as much as you want as well.....i gotta be missing something,i'm just not understanding.i especially don't get the problem anyone has with the sequencer,when you can easilly knock out your sequences in a matter of minutes.and duplicate them fly lo technique..hell,on the sx and some other sp's you can just duplicate patterns instantly right?someone please explain,i'm real interested,i've never even seen a youtube vid of someone doing resample style,at least the whole process. even on kels satirical vid he used the sequencer on the mpc...i'm mad curious here.anyone?

Out of frustration with the sequencer, I embraced the resample method. I do it a bunch of ways. I usually chop some song samples up quickly and get my "palette" going, marking as I need to. Some of the samples, I will mess with, resampling with various effects and filters. I leave them all on "gate". Then I get some simple drum samples...kick, snare, hihat. Usually have those as "mono" and without gate or loop on. I will resample my sample chops as I play drums over them, often leaving MFX on just the sample so I can manipulate while resampling. Since the song samples are on gate (not the drums), I can hop around by letting go of one as I hit another. I dont use a metronome or anything, just freestyle playing the sample chops and drums as I feel it sounds right. Sometimes I will make a whole song just freestyling, but more often than not, I will build up loops with these resampled performances. Once I have a bunch of loops I made, I will leave them all as "loop" and "gate" and jump from loop to loop. If I want the loop to continue, I will hold it down as long as I need and the instant I want to change I let go and hit the next one on some ninja shit. For variance, i might trigger some of the original samples to interrupt the end of a loop. After I resample the entire performance and i am happy, I will usually compress the whole track (I have already kind of previewed what it will be early on to get the levels right) and then I will make passes over the whole track with various effects. That's about it. At times, I will start by making a dope drum loop and drop samples over it while resampling to build those loops and sometimes I will resample a sequence of song sample chops and then drop drums over them. I used to be intimidated by this, because I worried about drum timing (coming from a grid world) and I worried about gaps and timing from loop transitions. With enough practice, I feel comfortable (and actually more inspired) doing all the drums with no sequencer or metronome and the transition from loop to loop is smooth. I hate being limited by a grid and I enjoy beats more when they are rawer and looser. I enjoy other people's resampled beats better than perfectly timed beats, too. I guarantee Dilla (on Donuts) and Madlib use the resample method.

[Heat Vision]

i agree that if youre going for a beat with a lot of mutes on track elements etc on the 404. the sequencer is a more ideal method since you can always copy a pattern and then tweak individual elements within it for subtle variation.

for just really simple loop type shit though my variation usually just comes from msx, reversing and retriggering the loop.

@ quincy banks regarding looping, i usually create a rough draft of my beat within the sequencer in order to mix down the track elements properly then ill re-sequence everything the resample method.

I.e when creating the final draft

ill lay down a snare loop, add 4 bars worth of hats and kicks, lay down my chops, lay down bass, and then once everything is added i then loop it.

[quincybanks]

Nice explanation. That's more or less how I've been making beats on this thing since I got it a few days ago.

I'm still a bit frustrated about having to re-capture the loop every time I resample though...

[a.D.]

way over my head and seems like a giant dirty clusterfuck...i just can't rationally come up with a reason why this is easier,or less time consuming..if it is,i'd really like to know-cause it could possibly be better for me..who knows..what i do know is that for every beat i make i have at least 8-12 different sequences,with different changes,drum mutes,filters,bass lines,multiple drum hits in random places,etc...plus an intro & outro usually...this would all take forever without being able to duplicate my sequences and make the little changes to them--and this is all stuff that's necesarry to make complete tracks that compete with everything else out there..especially if you have someone rhyming or singing on your beat..i just don't get it,if someone could give me a more straight forward,simple abc answer,that would be dope...& i was wondering,if everyone uses resample around here for the most part,who knows,maybe some just say they do for the extra props...but why do i always see everyone talking about shit like using subsonic to mute,or only applying compression to certain parts,or applying different effects & filters to dif parts of a beat-the sub mute would be impossible if it was all on one pad--and if all these different varients are on sepperate pads-again,this would take for fucking ever,and could be done on the sequencer in a fraction of the time.as far as drums,theres nothing about using the sequencer that puts you on any grid or restricts the way you choose to play your drums at all-you can have any kind of swing,any kind of pattern you could possibly want,even using quantize,depending on how you adjust the start points of your drum sounds-and again,how long exactly does it take you to make one single drum pattern assuming u're not just using one kick,snare and hat?(which is def not the way to go btw,if you dont have velocity sensitivity)..lastly dilla and madlib-dilla was a lifetime mpc user,mainly the 3000,and only used the 303 in the donuts era when he was near death--and even then you have no way of knowing if he used the sequencer or not,i would have to say he most likely did,based on his prior experience--madlib-uses a 303 and 606,yea,but thats just part of his arsenal,and he didn't even use those well into the 2000's-he used the sp-1200 and an mpc..still uses the 1200 for a lot of drums,and a mpc 4000 as well....so with possibly a few exceptions,we have no way of knowing his complete process--no you can't guarantee me that he uses this method..theres no way that with using 2,3,4 different machines,2 of which have much more sophisticated sequencers than the 303..that he's bouncing everything together on one pad on an sp...unless it's just some loop based stuff with little added elements--that would just be stupid and make no sense,especially after over a decade of using sequencers...any way you put it,both producers most classic,timeless tracks weren't made on sp's at all.not trying to make this a madlib dilla thing,but you said that like it's a given they do(did) this,and thats just not the case.no offense,i really am interested in the process,but that post wasn;t extremely clear,should be explainable in a few steps..anyone?besides making a 4bar pattern loop for 3 minutes.thats basically a skeleton-again no offense..but 4 bars?

[admbmb]

way over my head and seems like a giant dirty clusterfuck...i just can't rationally come up with a reason why this is easier,or less time consuming..if it is,i'd really like to know-cause it could possibly be better for me..who knows..what i do know is that for every beat i make i have at least 8-12 different sequences,with different changes,drum mutes,filters,bass lines,multiple drum hits in random places,etc...plus an intro & outro usually...this would all take forever without being able to duplicate my sequences and make the little changes to them--and this is all stuff that's necesarry to make complete tracks that compete with everything else out there..especially if you have someone rhyming or singing on your beat..i just don't get it,if someone could give me a more straight forward,simple abc answer,that would be dope...& i was wondering,if everyone uses resample around here for the most part,who knows,maybe some just say they do for the extra props...but why do i always see everyone talking about shit like using subsonic to mute,or only applying compression to certain parts,or applying different effects & filters to dif parts of a beat-the sub mute would be impossible if it was all on one pad--and if all these different varients are on sepperate pads-again,this would take for fucking ever,and could be done on the sequencer in a fraction of the time.as far as drums,theres nothing about using the sequencer that puts you on any grid or restricts the way you choose to play your drums at all-you can have any kind of swing,any kind of pattern you could possibly want,even using quantize,depending on how you adjust the start points of your drum sounds-and again,how long exactly does it take you to make one single drum pattern assuming u're not just using one kick,snare and hat?(which is def not the way to go btw,if you dont have velocity sensitivity)..lastly dilla and madlib-dilla was a lifetime mpc user,mainly the 3000,and only used the 303 in the donuts era when he was near death--and even then you have no way of knowing if he used the sequencer or not,i would have to say he most likely did,based on his prior experience--madlib-uses a 303 and 606,yea,but thats just part of his arsenal,and he didn't even use those well into the 2000's-he used the sp-1200 and an mpc..still uses the 1200 for a lot of drums,and a mpc 4000 as well....so with possibly a few exceptions,we have no way of knowing his complete process--no you can't guarantee me that he uses this method..theres no way that with using 2,3,4 different machines,2 of which have much more sophisticated sequencers than the 303..that he's bouncing everything together on one pad on an sp...unless it's just some loop based stuff with little added elements--that would just be stupid and make no sense,especially after over a decade of using sequencers...any way you put it,both producers most classic,timeless tracks weren't made on sp's at all.not trying to make this a madlib dilla thing,but you said that like it's a given they do(did) this,and thats just not the case.no offense,i really am interested in the process,but that post wasn;t extremely clear,should be explainable in a few steps..anyone?besides making a 4bar pattern loop for 3 minutes.thats basically a skeleton-again no offense..but 4 bars?

I wish there was more to it I could add to make you feel better, but that's it. Basically, the SP's suck as sequencers...they do. You can use any number of programs that sequence beautifully and a lot easier than the SP line. The ability to make resample beats and the gang of effects make them priceless to me. I can make beats very quickly that have piles of changeups. You dont need mutes if you just let go of the gated sample pad for a second (or effect grab the isolator). I also resample lower kicks and snares to add dynamics (to answer your drum question). Dropping effecs with effect grab adds piles of changes to your track and keeps it interesting. In the end it doesn't matter what anybody else does...half the fun is creatively pulling magic out of these little boxes with your own trial and error tricks. I learn new stuff all the time.

Do you have any examples of your beats using the sequencer?

[Dr Van Nostrand]

i'm definitely understanding of everything you say dru, i see all the same faults in the resample method and it doesn't coincide with how i feel comfortable makin tracks at all, actually your posts in the original post a trick/tip thread put me onto using space in front of drums when i first was figuring this machine out, and over time i built on that concept to create my own way of working with space to place drums, and its really crazy how much of a difference 2 or 3 clicks on the start point of a hit changes how it sits in a pattern.....

but i will say i have made plenty of real rough, fairly simple beats with a little resampling to get some simple drum loops or chain a couple chops together, and then just smashin some live play while recording out to cassette, which is the pretty much the same as just resampling the performance, and it was all usually done just so i could get an idea of how the beat might turn out, how the sounds i chose mixed together and all that, and so i could listen to it outside the bedroom, but some of those beats were ones i grew to really like, and would want to go back and redo, and more often then not i could never make em as good as i felt they were from that initial recording, just something in the feeling of that raw take, subtle mistakes and on the spot change ups and all, i think somewhere in there is the appeal of the resample method

but i did wanna chime in and say i'm somebody who usually falls into your camp, and one thing that has always tripped me out about using that method besides all the shit you mentioned is vinyl sim comp, its probably just because i'm so invested in using the way i have come to know, i like it across everything, so i would assume you wait til the end to use it, but then you can't adjust levels if it is having a heavy effect on something, i guess like anything its just something that you need to put time into so you can figure out the subtleties of working that way

[a.D.]

Edit--yo i'm sorry doc,i called you jeff cause i always confuse you and dj jeff,since you've both been posting here for years and keep your music secret,lol

yea man,no doubt,i'm not dissing anyone,i just don't see how this is useful,or so much more useful that the sequencer-or why the sequencer sucks,for that matter..but i mean i come from the pre-computer age,when using something like an eps or asr,which i first learned to make beats on,had the exact kind of sequencer as the sp's..and the sampletrak i used before i got an sp.i don't see how laying out an 8 bar drum pattern in 3 minutes,then doing whatever you want to it sucks..how does that suck exactly?especially considering the fact that with machines like the 404,and the sampletrak,you have no menu's to scroll thru,no dials to fuck with extensively,etc,none of that the mpc's-which supposedly have such amazing sequencers-have which slow workflow,you just get your drums chopped-which again is mad quicker than an mpc..and bang them out.then you're free to change them up however you want...i usually just start with a simple -kick hat snare hat hat kick snare- pattern,(and believe it or not,since the 404 doesn't have swing,or velocity,i usually use 4-5 kicks,8 hats,and 3 snares-all the same ones usually,for a simple standard beat at least, with different volumes & some with varying ammounts of space in front of them-sounds tedious but only takes 15 minutes or so,you just gotta do this if you're using a 404 and want your sound to be up to par with top notch shit out there...then i decide what i wanna do with my chops,shit,99% of times i'll lay that innitial pattern before i even have my records picked out,how the hell am i gonna lay down the perfect drum pattern?lol...after the drums,the fun part,and laying your chops can just take a few minutes...or more often for me hours,because i fuck with so many different ways to do things before i decide-but thats just me,if you have your chops planned out before hand,you got your beat done within an hour or so,complete with intro,verses,choruses,a change up,and an outro.....how can this suck,and how can there be an easier way to sequence?i mean,if your goal is to make a beat in 5 minutes,or quickly cut & paste some shit just so you can make a beat,and have people listen to it,and tell people you make beats,& feel cool cause you're a producer...thats cool,but i'm trying to put together some timeless classic shit..not that i'm anywhere close to that 100 % of the time,but thats always gotta be the goal.and no,i'm not necesarily refering to anyone on this board,but there's a lot of people with this mentality.

anyway,thats cool about the swing technique-in all honesty when i started doing it i had no idea that it was already a technique producers had used for some time...i didnt learn by reading articles on the net-never had the net-i learned by listening--still learning...with the drums for a long time i studied how cats with dope swing sounded and tried to disect it--i noticed the hats never hit right on the kicks & snares,but a little after usually,plus it sounded like the kicks were shifted closer in to the snare hits as well..this is automatically done with a lot of swing/shuffle settings,but when i had my eps,asr,and even my st-i didn't even know what swing was,lol...never even adjusted that shit.so my first experimenta with swing came with the 404,which of course,has no damn swing functuion for some reason.i saw mad heads on here talking about swing,non-quantized-but when u listened to their shit it sounded all herky jerky & shit-not swing,but sloppy-hip hop swing is an old tribe beat,or a pete rock beat,premiere,etc..everyone was dissing using quantize,and it's like, how?all the legends used/use quantize the vast majority of the time,w the exception of maybe rza....i'm not hating on not using quantize either-- dibiasi's swingology 101 is a perfect example-no quantize,but not at all sloppy or off time,and that same swing can be accomplished with quantize on,deppending on how you chop your shit--so thats a little advice for all you young cats on here that recently got sp's-i'm really not just trying to be long winded here,lol....cats can really leasrn from that shit,i don't believe in making people learn shit on their own,since i never had anyone to teach me shit,and akways wish that i did....i know you're not a young dude like that jeff,of course,thats dope that helped you out though.

my beats using the sequencer?every single sp beat i've ever made..and every single sampletrak beat i've ever made using the same process.examples..well,you can look at the last 2 battles,or more going back like maybe 4 or 5 pages or so,or all the joints i've posted on the music section in the last couple years on box net..or the battle winners archive(druphit,adru,both old user names) or just google adru the misphit..mad shit out there...my best works def yet to come though,i've learned a whole lot the last year or so,studying mad filtering & drum techniques,sample coloration,lo fi techniques,etc...first time in my adult life i really had constant net access at home,so i've read every decent beat thread immaginable,& watched every good beat making vid in existance,lol....wow,this is gonna be a long.ass.post.

[a.D.]

adm always thought u had some interesting,clean sounding beats-but you're saying all this comes straight from 1 pad on the sp?...i mean u got heavy ass sidechain ducking going on that sounds nothing whatsoevr like compression on an sp-like not only is the ducking much more extreme than what vinyl sim or mfx12 can achieve,but your drums don't have that harsh semi-distorted smack of heavy sp compression.i guess i must have misunderstood you for saying that you do all your work on the sp,since a lot of your beats are obviously put together in some ways on a computer,after sampling with the sp ....nothing wrong with that of course,i just thought you were saying that all the work you do,and the finished product,comes from within the sp--which ones of these were strictly sp resample beats,so i can take note of the differences?

[admbmb]

adm always thought u had some interesting,clean sounding beats-but you're saying all this comes straight from 1 pad on the sp?...i mean u got heavy ass sidechain ducking going on that sounds nothing whatsoevr like compression on an sp-like not only is the ducking much more extreme than what vinyl sim or mfx12 can achieve,but your drums don't have that harsh semi-distorted smack of heavy sp compression.i guess i must have misunderstood you for saying that you do all your work on the sp,since a lot of your beats are obviously put together in some ways on a computer,after sampling with the sp ....nothing wrong with that of course,i just thought you were saying that all the work you do,and the finished product,comes from within the sp--which ones of these were strictly sp resample beats,so i can take note of the differences?

I checked your battle beats and I gotta say I am impressed, especially that Schmauto Chop. Like to hear more of your stuff.

Pretty much all my tracks are sequenced via resample on the SP-404 or 555. Some of the ones that have fluid basslines, I will play an external synth between two SP's or use Reason (just for the synth sounds) on the SP-555, because you can resample and record the feed through your soundcard at the same time. That Samiyam Kitties cover I did was all 404, and I sampled the individual synth bass notes. The only recent one I did that was all Reason was Metro Gnome. H_11 was all 404 and I got the synths by sampling right off the MicroKorg. Post-Fi was all 555, and then I added extra effects on top sampling though a Kaoss Pad. On Monotron jawn, I made the foundation of the track with a 404 and then threw it in Reaper and overdubbed live bass over it. Something Spatial was all 404.

As for not squishing the drums, I basically do this. With the comp on, I adjust the volume of the drums so they aren't squished and turn the compressor up as much as I can. Then, all the other samples I turn the volume way down on so in the space between the drums, the compressor pulls them up to the threshold. Instead of the drums getting smooshed under the threshold of the limit, I adjust them until they are right at the limit so I can protect the attacks of the kick and snare.

[a.D.]

hmm,cool,but i've never been able to achieve ducking anything close to a couple of those..& how do you get the drums to not sound mad compressed with mfx12?i mean i turn that shit on,and when i play drums by themselves,they sound completely different then their regular sound,same with vinyl sim..its not till i put music over them that they go back to more of their normal sound,but they still sound a little different..but as far as the ducking-on that battle beat i actually used mfx12-which i hardly ever do for a whole beat,i usually use vinyl sim at about 1 to three o'clock..but for this with the mfx12 i had sustain all the way up,attack all the way down,samples mad quiet..and the kick insanely louder than the snares & hats(when played without comp)==and you see the result,just a small ammount of ducking..not that i'm trying to get major ducking-but thats the most extreme setting you can have to get it...maybe it's just cause the only real bass in the acoustic kick is from resampling in box,with a little eq,iso,and some subsonic..if i had my choice i woulda layered an 808 or 909 or something under it & just used vinyl sim..are you saying though that if you turn the drums down to a certain point,they'll sound normal by themselves,even with comp on???i always sample my drums in at 124 volume and leave them there,with some minor adjustments...sample my music in at volume 65,74,or83..idk ,whatever...thanks though,i appreciate that man...but how have you never heard my shit?you've been on here for years,lol

[a.D.]

i just realized something..notice when i listed the volumes i sample in my music at,they all add up to 11,6+5,7+4,8+3...some times 92, 9+2...this is just a supersticous habit basically...but i just noticed that these numbers that add up to 11,in a numerological sense, are all 9 digits apart...and 9 plus 92 is 101,too...plus 56,47,38,29--the pattern ends at 20 on the low end,and 9 + 11 is 20...is there some kind of simple math explanation for that that i dont get?weird

[admbmb]

I dont really dig the vinyl sim comp for bus compression. I like using the flutter effect on samples, and occaisonally give em a little comp as I am sampling, but I much prefer the regular compressor to get that "pump" over the whole track (in limit "on" mode).

[a.D.]

what?whats limit on mode?are you talking about one of the sp's other than the 404?i like vinyl sim compression for my shit,cause its kinda like a middle ground between 90's sounding beats with little compression,and a more modern compressed sound...thats kinda my goal with most beats,a middle ground between old and new..like i dig using early 90's sounding snares with more modern type kicks,or 90's sounding kicks with more modern sounding snares heavy on the high end..a modern drum kit with some old sleigh bell "halftime" type tamborines...or the kicks and snares from a break with more up to date panned hats and tamborines on the snares,maybe a little clap on the 4 beat or something...etc..you get the point,lol....idk...really wanna know about this limit mode

[admbmb]

what?whats limit on mode?are you talking about one of the sp's other than the 404?i like vinyl sim compression for my shit,cause its kinda like a middle ground between 90's sounding beats with little compression,and a more modern compressed sound...thats kinda my goal with most beats,a middle ground between old and new..like i dig using early 90's sounding snares with more modern type kicks,or 90's sounding kicks with more modern sounding snares heavy on the high end..a modern drum kit with some old sleigh bell "halftime" type tamborines...or the kicks and snares from a break with more up to date panned hats and tamborines on the snares,maybe a little clap on the 4 beat or something...etc..you get the point,lol....idk...really wanna know about this limit mode

Hold [CANCEL] + [MFX] and it will turn Limit mode off and on. It changes the parameters of your regular compressor. Instead of Sustain and Attack, you will now have Sustain and Release.

[a.D.]

what??!! i had no idea..never seen anyone say anything about this whatsoever,damn..must be one of those "i'm not telling no one my secrets"type deals lol...thanks man!bout to turn on the sp now..