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 Post subject: Re: SP-404 MK2?
PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2021 6:12 am 
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can anyone explain the appeal of this machine to me rather than just copping a good USB midi controller and pairing it with a good DAW with good plugins?

i guess i'll wait until someone on the forums cops one to see if the FX are any decent

if so, maybe i'll cop one in a few years when the price on used units significantly drops, but the likelihood of me copping one of these is slim to none while i am still keeping my eye out for a nice MPC2000

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 Post subject: Re: SP-404 MK2?
PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2021 9:55 am 
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Not sure what elleguru and Ill Geen keep laughing at, but not me I hope, hahaha :mrgreen:

Just to be clear, I only pointed out the pitch page to put ellaguru's mind at rest regards the pitching, since it tells you that "Vinyl Mode Pitch" is pitch and speed simultaneously, or to use their own words "like an analogue record". I pointed out the effects thing because them naming the exra block of effects as "Input Effects" is a bit weird, cause it looks as if all effects can be used as Input Effects, not just those in the (what looks like an additional) Input Effects block.

As for Zindan, well, have fun investing in a platform that you have no control over, and the tech giants can mess-up for you any time they wish. Unless of course you're wise enough to be using Linux instead these days, but something tells me you're not.

As for the MKII and its effects, the effects are top notch dude, well implemented, up to double the amount of parameters available on each effect, they're even tempo-syncable where they should be, and to top it all off they've given you both versions of 'Vinyl Sim' on the one machine. The MKII is not only much better than the previous versions, it completely eliminates the need for any of the previous models as far as I can see. I don't see anything you could do on them that could not be achieved on the MKII. Even the more expensive SP models that had multi-track recording, you can technically do that on the MKII as well and in a more hands-on and creative way, it's just done different and I couldn't help but notice BoBeats (who is new to SP) was the only one out there other than myself to point out that it can be used as a vibey multi-track cassette recorder.

MPC2000 is cool, but it will still cost you and you will not be outputting music with it as quickly, efficiently, or creatively as you would with a MKII. I think the design differences make this pretty obvious to be honest, but good luck anyway bro!


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 Post subject: Re: SP-404 MK2?
PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2021 10:02 am 
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SP-USER wrote:
As for Zindan, well, have fun investing in a platform that you have no control over, and the tech giants can mess-up for you any time they wish. Unless of course you're wise enough to be using Linux instead these days, but something tells me you're not.


lol nah i don't need any of that shit, genius

i was asking for the people that feel they need this 404 mk2

99% of the music i make is purely hardware

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HAWTKARL wrote:
The last thing we need is another utube sampling digital lo-fi anime beat maker.

IIIII wrote:
he can turn water into a beat, and feed a thousand dancehalls with only two drumbreaks


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 Post subject: Re: SP-404 MK2?
PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2021 10:03 am 
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SP-USER wrote:
The MKII is not only much better than the previous versions, it completely eliminates the need for any of the previous models as far as I can see. I don't see anything you could do on them that could not be achieved on the MKII.


you're an idiot and you don't know shit about hardware i'm sorry b

learn what an A/D converter is

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HAWTKARL wrote:
The last thing we need is another utube sampling digital lo-fi anime beat maker.

IIIII wrote:
he can turn water into a beat, and feed a thousand dancehalls with only two drumbreaks


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 Post subject: Re: SP-404 MK2?
PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2021 10:05 am 
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SP-USER wrote:
MPC2000 is cool, but it will still cost you and you will not be outputting music with it as quickly, efficiently, or creatively as you would with a MKII. I think the design differences make this pretty obvious to be honest, but good luck anyway bro!


you're literally incapable of even making a beat with a 404 SX

my second most played song of all time is a 10 minute microwave hardware beat that samples only vinyl and nintendo 64

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HAWTKARL wrote:
The last thing we need is another utube sampling digital lo-fi anime beat maker.

IIIII wrote:
he can turn water into a beat, and feed a thousand dancehalls with only two drumbreaks


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 Post subject: Re: SP-404 MK2?
PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2021 10:37 am 
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Dude, I don't care that you sampled your Microwave, I don't even care if you sampled the beep at end that tells you your Cicken Nuggets is ready, cause the end of the day bro, it's just a microwave, and you are basicallly just sampling sound effects from it and anyone can do that!


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 Post subject: Re: SP-404 MK2?
PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2021 11:30 am 
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zendan wrote:
can anyone explain the appeal of this machine to me rather than just copping a good USB midi controller and pairing it with a good DAW with good plugins?


Hmm... Dunno, Z. I guess, regarding the question, the appeal is the fact that you'll not need a PC and a midi controller. The MKII is an "everything is here" package. For me, even sitting near a computer kinda makes me not want to even start the thing.

We still have to listen to the thing being used and stuff. I believe the people that worked on this update understand the thing and tried to work outside the box and really listened to a lot of people (at least what's they're saying on that "design interview" or something like that).

It's a new and nice thing and that causes all that. But, honestly, looks like a nice piece of hardware to have.
---
Edit:
Bro, I was checking the Arena and saw your post there, Z. Was listening to the samples you sent and thinking about what I could do using the 555 and then it struck me.

The MKII, if the only sampler, will really make everything sounds a bit more like "it was made on a computer". I'm talking about the fact that we will be able to really nitpick a lot of stuff there. Like "on no, I want this thing to me 28383 milisec ahead" and stuff.

The MKII brings a lot of new stuff that improves some boring tasks on the older SPs and that's cool, but at the same time, this "let's make this really act like a computer" has that other side too.

On the interview, the dude even says that they worried about making it an easier piece of hardware so people that's not insane with SPs can also do stuff on it. I'm bad at it so, a lot of stuff is welcomed by me lol.

But either way, the SP community is really creative, I bet my ass it'll be put to good use by a lot of people.


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 Post subject: Re: SP-404 MK2?
PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2021 12:48 pm 
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zendan wrote:
you're an idiot and you don't know shit about hardware i'm sorry b
learn what an A/D converter is

Ok I'll bite. What you will likely begin to see is a phenomena where people will swear the MKII doesn't sound as "warm" as the previous models. If it starts to appear, then rest assured it has more to do with the fact that the MKII is now running at 48K instead of the previous 44.1K, than it will ever have to do with A/D or indeed D/A. In other words, the MKII is technically more 'High-Fidelity' than the previous models and for a lot of people, that might not feel right. As far as I can pick-up from the YouTube videos, it does sound as if they've re-used the same effects algorithms but perhaps not tweaked the programming of those algorithms to compensate for the difference in sample rate, and that in turn could effect how end users percieve them, and the overall sound of the unit.

The diffence in sample rate will be felt across the frequency spectrum. What this means is that things like Reverb might be notably smoother and should be more capable at handling high frequencies better. What is also means though, is that low-end and mid-range "warmth" might need to be compensated a bit with a little extra EQ. The EQ on the 404 has a cut and boost of twelve decibels, and on the MKII, although it has the same it might feel as if it hasn't because the difference in sample rate will effect the overall mudiness of the sound (because mudiness sounds thicker and more bass-heavy).

So what's a poor homie supposed to do about it?

Well the good news is that on the MKII, you can boost your twelve decibels by upto another twelve decibels (which is insane), and to achieve it you simply use-up one of the busses to hold a master EQ of sorts that has been set-up by yourself to boost and correct any percieved tonal difference to "warmth" that might be felt from the upgraded sample rate.

But that's it in a nutshell, bro, 48K is simply higher-fidelity and less muddy than 44.1K, and that will effect the perception of "warmth" more than the AD and DA ever will. But try the solution I just outlined by configuring a corrective booster EQ on one of the busses, and you'll suddenly find that the MKII is capable of blowing the previous models out of the water in terms of "warmth" and "bass".

Hope that helps you out some, bro :wink:


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 Post subject: Re: SP-404 MK2?
PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2021 1:10 pm 
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SP USER, the SX already samples in lossless WAV so your point there was moot

the older SPs have very unique A/D converters that color the sound beautifully, and no that sound is not "warm"

you're an idiot if you think a digital sampler is going to make your samples sound warm

speaking of which, i'm working on a 202 flip rn for my SPBB just for fun

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HAWTKARL wrote:
The last thing we need is another utube sampling digital lo-fi anime beat maker.

IIIII wrote:
he can turn water into a beat, and feed a thousand dancehalls with only two drumbreaks


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 Post subject: Re: SP-404 MK2?
PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2021 1:28 pm 
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zendan wrote:
you're an idiot if you think a digital sampler is going to make your samples sound warm

It depends on the sample rate dude, and the reason why was explained to you in my previous post. The rate at which you sample something has a similar effect on audio as image compression has on an image (even though it's not compression).

It's irrelevant whether you even bother sampling something to a pad, the effect will still be heard through your headphones because the A/D captured the audio at a fixed sample rate, processed it at that same sample rate, and then converted it back to analogue audio at that same sample rate.

And ultimately, it is that sample rate that will effect any perception of difference in warmth or fatness or whatever you want to call it, because as the sample rate increases, the mudiness of the sound decreases as the detail in the sound increases.

Or in laymans terms, it is the mudiness of lower sample rates that makes the sound be percieved as warmer, because the higher-end detail is not preserved at lower sample rates as well as it is at higher sample rates.


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 Post subject: Re: SP-404 MK2?
PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2021 1:57 pm 
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@sp-user (im not good with technical terms but i hope you get the idea) i feel like if you had an analogue synth in your hand and then an emulation on a computer of that synth, the synth is gunna be sounding a lot warmer and have more depth and breadth to its sound as opposed to the modern emulation? Would the same not apply for SP's where the more streamlined and modern boards and chips would be cleaner and sharper than the older tech impacting sound? So wouldn't it be down to the tech more than the sample? i feel like a deliberately muddy sample chopped in a DAW may sound a bit more shit and less authentic than a sample that went through a process on a machine to then come out with that final warmth or whatever so is it not down to machine over sample?

- i may have completely missed some of what you said that feeds into my questions


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 Post subject: Re: SP-404 MK2?
PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2021 2:49 pm 
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zendan wrote:
can anyone explain the appeal of this machine to me rather than just copping a good USB midi controller and pairing it with a good DAW with good plugins?

i guess i'll wait until someone on the forums cops one to see if the FX are any decent

if so, maybe i'll cop one in a few years when the price on used units significantly drops, but the likelihood of me copping one of these is slim to none while i am still keeping my eye out for a nice MPC2000


:D Ha! And you say I'm old. Get with the times bro. Its gonna be an all SP future.


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 Post subject: Re: SP-404 MK2?
PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2021 4:26 pm 
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Jaytreaze wrote:
@sp-user (im not good with technical terms but i hope you get the idea) i feel like if you had an analogue synth in your hand and then an emulation on a computer of that synth, the synth is gunna be sounding a lot warmer and have more depth and breadth to its sound as opposed to the modern emulation? Would the same not apply for SP's where the more streamlined and modern boards and chips would be cleaner and sharper than the older tech impacting sound? So wouldn't it be down to the tech more than the sample? i feel like a deliberately muddy sample chopped in a DAW may sound a bit more shit and less authentic than a sample that went through a process on a machine to then come out with that final warmth or whatever so is it not down to machine over sample?

- i may have completely missed some of what you said that feeds into my questions

Makes no difference whether it's done inside a DAW or a piece of dedicated hardware, because either way it's still DSP. Anything analogue you sample, whether it be an analogue synth or anything else, is captured at the spec of the machine capturing it, and that's the best the sample will ever be spec wise.

This is why people are drawn to the sound and "warmth" of old-school samplers. They had a much lower sample rate back then, and in some cases you had the best of both worlds because you had the low, muddy-fidelity of a low sample rate being pumped through real analogue filters.


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 Post subject: Re: SP-404 MK2?
PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2021 5:36 pm 
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Honestly, it might be a bit of a hot take, but I'm not so sure the whole audio converter and signature sound argument always holds very true. People underestimate what can (and should) be done through mastering a final mix. And some of the stuff from like the 90s really boils down to knowing how to use compressors or other FX and filters to get the same end result. Maybe some OG samplers make it easier, but maybe it's more about knowing what you're doing.

To be honest, I think I would much rather have the signature sequencer and 'swing' of some of the older samplers (their quantize or time correct feature), versus the literal lower fidelity sound quality (that sounds familiar or easy on the ears, vs super thin and clean like perhaps modern digital sounds).

I'm not at all denying there's a difference when it comes to DSP and analogue audio processing. But at times, it's kind of hard to really tell. Especially within a full mix of something that went through some proper mastering.

Having said that, the SP-404 MKII definitely seems like the ultimate sampler and FX box to me. Even for just making music with one sampler, the SP-404 MKII looks like a beast.

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 Post subject: Re: SP-404 MK2?
PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2021 9:42 pm 
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PHeMoX wrote:
People underestimate what can (and should) be done through mastering a final mix. And some of the stuff from like the 90s really boils down to knowing how to use compressors or other FX and filters to get the same end result. Maybe some OG samplers make it easier, but maybe it's more about knowing what you're doing.
This is why I was so pleased to see an EQ with adjustable frequency per band. I really wanted the new model to be a do-it-all box with SP work-flow, and it really is one!

PHeMoX wrote:
Having said that, the SP-404 MKII definitely seems like the ultimate sampler and FX box to me. Even for just making music with one sampler, the SP-404 MKII looks like a beast.
Totally agree, I think it's an absolute beast of machine, made all the more better by being a beast with the SP work-flow. I've tried getting along with every other option out there. I tried DAWs, Workstations, Arrangers, and none of them work for me. I knew though, even shortly after first looking into the 404, that it would be perfect if they fixed the shortcomings, and that's exactly what they've done.

My mind is made up on the 404MKII, the only thing I've to do now is find a nice synth to feed it :lol:


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