Hello everybody,
haven't been here for a while now, but I'm still having fun with my SP 404 along with several synths and my guitars. The 404 is a fine tool for musical experimenting.

What I'm missing badly is the possibility of making really seamless loops, i.e., making loops without any click noise or other artefacts at the start/end points of the loop, especially when looping synth sounds like pads and other more consistent stuff like that. The SP 404 unfortunately isn't able to do this, although it's very usable in all other disciplines. Currently I'm using two BOSS DD20 delay units, which are able to produce a kind of seamless loops on a delay basis in good quality, but without any start/stop/trigger possibilities.

I have to add, that I prefer to work with hardware of all kind, trying to avoid making music with PC or laptop. It's just a matter of experience and personal preference. Nevertheless, if there really isn't any proper hardware equipment on the market for that purpose, I probably would go software (which?).

So, does anybody know of an affordable sampler/looper, which fullfills the above criteria? Hints and tipps are welcome!

Thank you.

If you need stereo:
SL-20 (40 seconds, no overdubs, doesn't save)
KP3 (+-13 seconds, needs some button pressing)
M9/M13 (28 seconds, doesn't save)
Stereo JamMan
RC-50

Thanks, sharpmotif. I've owned the KP3 and the RC50. Both are not able to record seamless loops with synth/pad footage.
I don't know the other mentioned units, have to get some info about them, except for the JamMan, which is more a kind of pedal to record and play just one loop at a given time rather than a sampler like the SP units.

I assume, that you mean the Line6 M9/M13 (?). Will take a look at it.

What about the Akai MPC's regarding seamless loops? Or RedSound?

I'm looking for a sampler like the SP with the ability to produce seamless loops without clicks and crackles.

Ok, let's focus on the SP-404:

I do agree it's pretty hard to almost impossible to get some stuff to loop without clicks and crackles.

I assume you've done quite a bit of research on this, so I don't want to sound annoying.

With the SP it seems like the way around this is to chop a really short section of the sound and then use effects to do stuff like volume swells and trails/fades.

I've got some great synth loops by sampling the SP-555's synth and then marking a really short section of it.

It is alot easier to use a software to do this though, because you can see the waveform and do some more detailed editing (although it is boring you get better loops faster).

This obviously defeats the purpose of having synths and guitar effects 'cause you loose alot of the character and filter sweeps and stuff like that, so I guess I get what you're saying.

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Just did it again and what happens is that when I set my sample to loop it just goes on and on without a glitch, if set to one shot then it ends up a bit abruptly (but with no pops/clicks/crackles/glitches).

maybe your setting your idea of what seemless is too high, because, although i don't do anything with synths really, i have looped plenty of things off of records that are full of sounds and had them loop seemlessly all the time, where the music never ends or anything, i think you just need to mess with your start end points, and figure out the points your looping it at, maybe you want to start on the one, but the end of the loop carries over to the one, then it is real hard to loop seemlessly, so find a part later in the loop where most things drop out for a second or there is a note change and set that as the beginning then sequence it accordingly, using reverse with the end point is very helpful as well so you can hear how its ending right off the bat and and adjust it like that, plus when you put drums over the loop it covers up alot of blemishes usually too, just keep on the box, and if you have to, embrace the clicks!!!!

This. Couldn't make the right words to type it.

To understand how to prevent clicks you must know why it's clicking. Both your start and end point must be on "Zero Crossings". What is a "Zero Crossing"?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zero_crossing
Peep the diagram and picture the waveform in your daw of choice. A daw or mpc with chop lets you zoom and make sure. With an Sp you just have to use your ears and be patient/have time getting used to the machine.

zero crossing definitely is the answer to getting rid of clicks completely, when i am rearranging a finished beat in cubase trying to make it longer or something i always use the zero cross technique, but you can't really do anything about that in the 404, and you can definitely (for the most part) get it to work out by just using the start end points, sometimes i like to toss the loop in a pattern instead of trying to use the loop button, but it does seem that, sometimes, there is nothing you can do about clicks, and again i've never used a synth with the 404 so i don't have that experience, but i think it will be more likely to click if the note that falls on the first beat where you loop it is carrying over from the end of the loop, just record yourself playing the loop a few times and relocate the loop point so it falls on a spot where the notes all change, i wouldn't even sweat blank air, just don't do it in the middle of a note playing

i've noticed clicks especially when i resample chops (marked up exactly how i want them) with an effect like a filter on, this is why i like to chop last after all effects have been added, and then put vinyl sim across everything

Have you tried pre-determining the length of your loop by setting the BPM prior to sampling? Not sure if it will help achieve a true zero crossing, but it at least is a more precise, mechanical way of looping rather than using the mark button.... Don't get me wrong I love that mark button, and I agree with Dr. Van Nostrand in that you can get it to loop seamlessly with effort, but I've also found value in pre determining the BPM for certain loops and what not...

Thanks to you all.

I'm aware of zero-crossing and what's happening right there at the start/end points - thanks for explaining nevertheless.

I'm still experimenting with my 404 all the time, ambient music mainly, which per se has a lot of continuing sounds, have a lot of fun actually. Sometimes I get it without clicks, and sometimes not. It depends on whether I'm near a zero crossing accidently or not. And that's what it's all about: I would like to have a tool at hand to handle the chopping procedure specificly, not accidently.

I heard, that the older Yamaha units SU700 and RS7000 can do this using their zero-cross search and crossfading function, with good results. But those machines are a bit dated and sample memory space is rather limited.

Too bad that there isn't anything like that on the market right now with up to date specs. On the other hand it's true, that there are some methods with the SP's to minimize that problem. I like the idea to first get the best out of what I already have.

But I, for example, actually like to set the bpm prior to recording (as Dr. Tad Winslow said), do it most of the time, thus getting perfect sync between my samples. Unfortunately that way I cannot edit the start/end points without loosing sync. So I have to hit the right moment when recording and/or using some effects or drums to hide those damn clicks. There ARE drums anyway, but also those beloved QUIET moments, which are essential to the whole thing..

I hear you man...

This probably is beyond what you need, and might not fit the affordable criteria you set forth, but I never run into clicking when looping problems on my MPC1000. I think the combination of being able to adjust BPM by not just whole numbers, but by tenths as well (90.1/90.2/90.3 etc) and the ability to see the actual wav form and listen to it as you chop is very helpful.

I am able to avoid the clicking problems on the 404 just by experimenting, but I do run into it all the time and am constantly aware of it when I am chopping. I don't even think about it on my MPC because it's never been a problem...

That's a new aspect for me, since I never considered the MPC's seriously, just because the memory seemed a bit limited. But then again it's not that few after all, when thinking in loops. If there are capabilities of exact wave editing in the MPC, this may be a solution.

The question regarding MPC would be: can I edit waves that way on the MPC, that, as a result, I get a portion of sound with a specific length, for example 2,666 seconds, which plays exactly one 4/4 measure at 90 bpm, thus in sync with any 90 bpm material - AND zero crossings at the start/end of that portion? I assume, that inserted silence isn't equivalent to zero crossing necessarely, is it?

Anyway, that's something I cannot do on the SP. I have to admit, that these are special cases, and quite often I get loops with few or no clicks, when playing with my SP. But for me the sheer possibility to get a clean result when necessary, is something, I would spend some money for.

As far as memory goes, the 128MB RAM upgrade for the MPC gives you a little over 24 minutes of mono/12 minutes stereo sampling time, just to let you know... The official AKAI ram upgrade is like $100+ plus but you can get other brands of RAM for less than $15...



I don't really think that way with my music, so I'm not sure I can directly answer that question, but you have the ability to truly pitch things on the MPC, meaning if you pitch it down the speed at which it plays slows down as well.... For things like rhythmic samples, and things where the pitch can be a little off you can just adjust the tuning slightly to stretch it where you need to get it... You have complete control over where your start end points are, and with the JJOS for the 1000, even the free version, the trim (sampling chopping) screen is vastly improved and you can easily zoom in on the wav form... You can also time stretch things on the MPC, which may be what you need because you could chop it at a zero crossing then time stretch it to where you need it... Time stretching is not my thing and I have honestly never used it on the MPC, but my friend uses it all the time and I like his beats..

If you've never used one before an MPC can be overwhelming at first, but if you're patient with it it really can do just about whatever you want it to do... They usually have one setup at Guitar Centers, so I would try to go into Guitar Center and try one out... If you hit the mode button on the front, then the pad with the word "trim" over it you can get a feel for chopping on it... Just remember the JJOS makes chopping even easier and more powerful.. I would maybe try to go try one and bring an ipod or somethign you can sample from while you're there to get a feel for it....

Sorry that might not have answered your specific question...

Thanks a lot! That's good info, encouraging me to take a closer look to the MPC. But I'd like to know one thing, that I've forgotten to mention in my previous post: is the MPC able to add a very short fade in/out to a given sample? That would be a method to create seamless loops out of samples, which are already trimmed to a specific length. With a small amount of timestretching that would result in a loop with a specific tempo including the crossfade.

Actually I'm not sure if I got the whole thing right, but with my SP-404 I can set the tempo and thus the length of the sample before recording. It's just the possibility to crossfade or to add a very short fade in/out what's missing (which results in clicks and crackles).

So the MPC would be an alternative in that respect, if that fading thing was possible.

hey man, the kp3 is able to do this.. you just need to attack the problem a different way.. here is a step-by-step:

When you are playing a pad, the reason you have issues with looping is because the beginning of the pad doesnt have the 'tail' sounding over it like it will after its been playing for a bit... (hope this makes sense)

so what you need to do, is hit the keys for the pad..

however long you want your loop to be.. hold it down for that long.. when you reach the end of the length you desire, THEN start the looper (continue to hold the keys)... keep holding until you've counted the length out again.

This way, you record the 'tail' stuff at the beginning of the loop.. the only other thing you need to worry about is that your delays and LFOs are synchronized to the BPM, to avoid them being different before and afterthe loop around point.

Besides that, it's just a matter of having the tempo synced correctly.. also make sure you have installed the latest OS, because it holds sync alot better and adds new features.