ha HA! i've been waiting for that one!

I'd say there is a deep respect for the producers that dig deep and get dusty to find vinyl gems, but you should never feel like you have to live up to a popular expectations. I was keen to use loops and sample packs before in order to get a certain sound, but as I expanded my records I realized that there are plenty of open drum hits and unique usable sounds on vinyl.

I agree with what count said.

Compelation records (or the modern term loop pack) are nothing new. Since the early days of hip hop this was an issue. Some DJs would put a lot of effort and money into their records, while some would just buy compilation records. Most the listeners wouldnt give a shit but among the DJs you were seen as phoney.

Co-sign

you have to remember that its 2008- for the most part the dopest breaks out there have been dicovered and already flipped many times-i mean i could go out right now and spend a grand on records and the chances of finding a dope drum break that hasnt been used before are slim to none.individual drum hits are another story ,you can find those on all kinds of records-but thats actually where the library stuff can come in handy,as far as layering and making shit knock like it needs to.most producers will at least throw an 808 under the kicks on most breaks.but as far as using/chopping breaks,theres nothing wrong at all with getting them from comps,sample cd's.whatever..its the final product that matters.personally i don't like to spend a huge ammount of time just trying to tweak some drum sounds,i wanna get to making the actual beat-when it comes to digging culture,i'm much more drawn to finding obscure samples to flip than drum sounds.i can't stand beat making elitists talking about getting drums from anything but vinyl is wack-theres so much more to production than just the drums.

Your post got me thinking.I can't stand those elitists either...And usually those who brag about how they tweak their drums for hours upon hours,they can't find an ill sample on a record to save their life!!
My only gripe with sample cd's is that they're just too expensive for the dull sounds they normally provide unless they're obtained illegaly on torrents

yeah torrents....but man just downlaod all those drum kits haha thast what i did i have like 50,000 sounds.

yeah exactly. but nowadays every scatch DJ and hip-hop DJ has got battle records for people JUST GETTING INTO DJing then having the entire ultimate breaks and beats and dusty fingers collections on wax is considered dope wheras before it was considered as cheating. time moves on and we need to evolve.

look at something like old-school UK jungle. amen break used in most songs. its what you do with the samples.

although saying that there is something with digging. like if i get a loop sample pack im not going to use a full loop but if i find a really rare record with a dope drum break then i might just go "nobody has this, maybe i'll just rip it straight".

but at the end of the day it's all about what feels right for you.

this is music. there are no rules. and i think realising there are no rules is important. i used to abide by strict "beat-making rules" in order to "keep it real". like i would only sample from wax. when using synths i would ALWAYS edit the parameters even if the original preset was dope and fit the beat. i would never use an 808 sample kit because i think you can't get the analog bump (which is what the 808 is famous for) from a sample. i mean it's crazy. but as i started to look at things in a broader sense i came to realise that the dopest musicians i look up to never gave a fuck about the rules and just did their thing.

But I'm doing what you're doing But I think that those companies(loopmasters etc...) are just way too greedy.

@Hot Sauce,I agree with you,there's no definite set of rules as long as the finished product is dope and innovative.

Interesting discussion. I've kinda concluded that thinking about the process and what's acceptable disconnects you from the process itself. It's like you should utilize whatever is needed as long as you feel inspired in the context of your music. Those rules (which are actually a kinda self imposed barrier) only exist if your desire of acceptance is greater than your art. Working your art is a lot more liberating tho.

^ oh absolutely. this all comes from the production of my music - cuz recently i was experimenting on working on stuff ONLY built outta samples which is not how i normally work.

so it got me thinking about all the divisions in sample culture as others have alluded to above (for ex: only using breaks nobody else has ever used, versus breaks others have heard but chopped differently, versus live instruments, versus virtual instruments, versus breaks compilations, versus any and all of the above).

and i don't get the feeling that anyone on this forum's particularly "this is right and that's wrong" but as many have said, it is an interesting discussion w/ gray shades in there.

so fanx to all for giving yr input. very cool to hear where everyone is on that grid.

ok, my 2 cents...

for me, personally, i think pre-cut, pre-assembled loop packs are wack. they seem grating to my sense of ethics. if you didn't find the break, how the hell are you flipping it? on the other hand, i have used reason, and if you go with the built in sounds, that's like using pre-selected samples. but i always thought the dr rex (pre-made loops) part was bs clearly, and shied away from it. drum machines, again, weaker than digging the hits yourself, but i'm not totally opposed to them, and it gets better the more you tweak the sounds. i feel like the longer the piece you loop, the weaker, generally (so drum machines can be more ok as long as you don't use the pre-made patterns), but if you dig it yourself you have more leeway, i.e. Madlib uses long bits sometimes but then he found them, so it's cool. i guess it's kind of elitist, but then you have to give more respect to an artist who found all they noise buried in dust, pulled they beats from the ground like an archaeologist, and constructed they tower of funk or what have you, compared to someone who just reordered what was on a loop pack. the first is an artist, the second might be if he catches the bug and keeps at it, but for now is just a toy, and it doesn't matter (to me) if the audience can tell the difference.
-end rant-

wow. that's a dope metaphor for digging man. well put.

EDIT:
It's sad to think that there is more money being made selling beatpacks than there is selling actual beats... if you want to look at if from that angle. You'd have a better chance feeding your fam by selling chopped up sample packs on ebay, than you would making a living as a producer.

Yeh i see ur point there. but in my opinion, the idea that artists like madlib can just straight rip cause he's madlib and he found it is just bullshit. Straight loops are looked down apon, yet i've found on plenty of occasions our favorite producers doing almost that...barely chopped at all. But no body seems to say anything about it cause you risk "disrespecting" the producer and being flamed. But what respect needs to be given to the producer, if its he who is disrespecting the artist who wrote the original sample?
just before you indulge in any flaming for me saying this, i do respect madlib as the best in the game, as well as dilla, and pre, and the rest. but i think they too rip loops sometimes
example...

Dilla - Gobstopper, off of the classic Donuts release.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KG-XalZxVr4

Luther Ingram's To the other man, the sample dilla used for the beat.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E-FR-4yViEM

Horns drop at 2:07, looped in dillas 'Gobstopper' . I guess it shits me when people are like "damn, dilla really put so much effort into this, hes amaising!" . All the effort lies on the digging...not putting that down either...but dont say that dilla did well when he made this song, cause he really didnt. he sped up and looped a pre recorded song.
i will add, this is one example of a dilla beat...i know he doesnt always do this, he does chop he does make some raw shit. so dont go calling me a hater, cause im not. and this is just my opinion.

OK, see, this doesn't really bother me, and not because it's Dilla doing it. my point is using loops isn't a big deal (within reason) if you find them yourself, but you loose all leeway IMO if you didn't find the loop. i just used Madlib's name cause i knew everyone would know him as a point of reference. i'm not arguing he should get special treatment cause The Unseen is legend. i'm saying it's ok for anyone as long as they keep it tasteful, not jack the whole 1st movement of a song, add some tremolo and rename it. and they had to find it, and the more obscure the better. i don't feel like Dilla was disrespecting Luther's work, just using it, but it's just my opinion and reasonable men can disagree. =) my opinions have developed over a while so they aren't set in stone, but that's how i feel at the moment.