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 Post subject: Re: Sampling
PostPosted: Thu Aug 08, 2013 8:01 am 
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what about taking 0dB crossings of different waves?
My process for sample loop editing: i choose the startpoint, not too close to a drum, but close to a softer sound. After defining my startpoint, i take the endpoint and set it close to the beginning, moving the endpoint closer to the end again to hear when i got the 4bars. (zoomed out)
Then i zoom in a little bit to identify the same waves close to start/endpoint to find the 2 0dB crossings. but like it said, it takes me like an our to make a single loop sounding nice.


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 Post subject: Re: Sampling
PostPosted: Thu Aug 08, 2013 8:46 am 
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I'm not sure what you mean about different waves.

As for loops, generally you will actually want the start point to be very near a drum so your loop starts right at "one"

by zooming in you can get a zero crossing right where you start to see the drum on the one and you can count along with it 1,2,3,4 etc. You don't have to make start and end points near softer sounds, try making start at the one and see if that helps.

Keep on trying!

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SP-202 (SOLD), SP-303 (SOLD), SP-404SX (main one I useD- killed w wrong PSU!), SP-505 (still have it!), SP-555 (SOLD), ES-1 (SOLD), ESX-1 (SOLD), RS7000, etc.


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 Post subject: Re: Sampling
PostPosted: Thu Aug 08, 2013 9:46 am 
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bgreene wrote:
Thank you unfolding... indeed i'm reading the "beattips manual" book, maybe you already heard about it, but there is sooooo much stuff to read, i already got like 200pages, most of them where about hiphop history and equipment.
No problems man!

Haven't heard of that book, will check it soon. One of the problems with hip hop & modern music right now is that so much of it is being made with relatively recent inventions- different kinds of computers (not just desktop or laptop but dedicated hardware samplers) & different kinds of recorded media (vinyl, cassette tapes, MP3s etc). What we're doing doesn't really have a foundation for solid musical study. Maybe in a few hundred years when hip hop's some kind of baroque that'll be different, but for right now we lucky because we're making the rules. As nice as a book like that might be for hip hop culture (and a producer's mindset), it might not assist you much on the 606.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not gonna tell you to bin the book. Keep learning from it & if it has any mention of the 606: AWESOME. Let me know!

Back to answering a few things that Om didn't address (damn you two really covered some bases!)...

bgreene wrote:
why can't anybody tell my: put your snares on 01:02, 02:02, 03:02, 04:02... hats on 01:04...........
i wish my parents would have send me to music school when i was younger...

OK so do you mean placing your samples across your pads (answer A) or at what point to place the notes in the sequencer (answer B)?

A, there's no hard & fast rule about how to assign samples to pads. Most people tend to group their sounds. Maybe kick on pad 1, snare on pad 2, hihat on pad 3, loop on pad 9. That's basically how I do it. Seen people do all kinds of other arrangements, but they always routinely place their samples on the same spots. If you ever want to finger drum, check out Jeremy Ellis' 16pad tutorials on Youtube. That man's a legend.

B, As Om said in the post above: All musical phrases are based on a countable rhythm. The vast majority of hip hop music uses 4/4 time, just like that Tribe song (great pick Om!). When the drums start about 40 seconds in at the very first kick drum start counting 1-2-3-4-1-2-3-4 over & over. Keep in time with the music. Notice how you always hear a kick on 1 & 3? Hear the snare on 2 & 4? That's the core of the rhythm. You're counting in quarter notes.

Now go back to the start of that drum loop & to count twice as fast, counting 1-2-3-4-5-6-7-8. Notice how on every count you lock in with the hihat? Nice isn't it? This sets the tempo for the rest of the band. These are 8th notes.

Quarters, 8ths, 16ths, halfs etc are all essential knowledge. It may take you a bit to learn but once you've got it you're set. Basically the higher the number, the faster the note will play.

Turn on your 606, load up a hihat, press roll & hold down the pad with the hat on it. Just listen to it play over & over. Now press FUNC+9, see how the roll resolution's 1/16 (that's a 16th note), now set the resolution to 1/24 & hold the pad again. See how different the feel is?

Don't forget to turn the roll button off either.

Now if you've got a stock loop (doesn't matter what it is). Play it & count along to it with 1-2-3-4-1-2-3-4. Imagine your kick drum goes on 1 & 3, your snares on 2 & 4, your hihats on every count. Doesn't matter if you can't play the drums the way you hear them in your mind just yet, the main thing is to understand the rhythm.

One thing to remember about 606 (this applies to all samplers & DAWs etc), the tempo of the sequencer is not always the same as the loop. I'll get to matching loops to tempo in a later post (Cheat mode: FUNC+13, hit the pad with your loop, go down to 'play type' & select phrase, make sure beat is 4/4, check the number at the bottom right of the screen -> that's your tempo to match).

bgreene wrote:
when it comes to different style sampling, i sometime get a nice loop that does not sound looped, but it takes me like an hour to get it done... and when it is done i can't figure out about how to to use it for my future beat.
(as you mentioned, i already set my crossings to 0dB, but difficulty over there, how to find the same wave for start and end point to make the loop not sound a loop)

then i extract a drum sound out of let's say "smooth criminal" by alien ant farm, reverb and compress it a little bit, but i can't get the drum sound right in the loop i made before...... so that made me angry and i deleted all the stuff on the 606, sampling only a few drums, snares and clapz because of some people giving me the hint, that too much sounds could distract workflow. which seems to be true, 16 drum sounds are a lot, if you take a look at how you can change them using the 3 common filters (reverb, compression, chorus)...
RE: Loops.

Just as Om said, count out your sample. If you can count it out to 1-2-3-4-5, make it stop IMMEDIATELY before the '5'. See how that goes. It used to take me a whole afternoon to trim a sample just right, these days I can get a 4 bar loop down from a whole song in a minute or so with the 606. It's just a matter of experience.

RE: Drums for loops.
Firstly when you're sampling you're extracting a fixed portion of a song. If there's too much playing behind the sound you want it might ruin the sample. That Alien Ant Farm song's a good example because there's a lot of extra stuff going on in it & at no point does the drummer ever play his snare on it's own. Extracting sounds from busy recordings is an artform, it can be done but it's hard & the SP isn't great for this stuff. Pick 'open' sounds for sampling, solo instruments or musical phrases that don't use many instruments all at the same time.

For a drum sample, try James Brown 'Funky Drummer'. Listen from 5:30. That's a classic drum solo EVERYONE has sampled. Moments like that are why dudes dig through crates of old records, lung infections be damned.

When trimming the sample down to kick, snare & hat make sure the playing part of the sample ends IMMEDIATELY before the next sound starts. The sound should end with silence & sound natural. Not all drum samples will do this, but that's where resampling comes in (plus the 606 has a dedicated effect for these situations, check out effect 45: the enveloper).

One reason I suggested you start off using a few drums (not 16) is so you get used to thinking about rhythm. A drummer can't play more than 4 instruments at once. Keep your drums using the one set of filter/effects, this will make them sound more consistent too. As cool as it may be to have a shitload of drums handy, it sucks for the listener if they sound like a mess.

Shit that was too much to post at once. My fingers & eyes hurt now... I need a beer.

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 Post subject: Re: Sampling
PostPosted: Thu Aug 08, 2013 11:47 am 
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Wow, what an answer, it is so complete, i will be reading it again this evening and try everything out on the 606.
I'm not considering making modern music, i prefer old school style, like pete rock, madlib,dj premier,.... i don't like music that was only made on a desktop computer. I know, the 606 is a computer too, but well, you know what i mean for sure ;)
About the book, well it's a book about hiphop production and like i mentioned, a it also comes down to the history. But it isn't especially for the 606, i bought it to get a theoretical knowledge base (about production, sampling and mpc'ing)
To your answers:
I meant Answer B, placing the notes. Do you record them in real time or as step notes? I know only a little bit about this theoretical part, that's maybe why i still consider it difficult to get a nice beat done. Indeed, i did not even think about using the Roll function, but this could be nice to add a hihat for example, no?

Now to the loops: well, if i take i stock loop, i don't need to adjust, so i can only add a few sounds maybe. but usually i cut out a piece of a favourite song where i know how the beat goes, an try to loop them until they don't sound like loops anymore (what is considered in the beattips manual book as a "good loop")
Lucky i had some electronical courses at school and could remember some of the waves ;)
Nice, i've made a nice loop, but what should i do with it?! choping an rearranging is quiet difficult
Now let's say i would use the loop to record track1 of pattern 1, first of all i need to bpm sync the patterns pitch, but once recorded i will always need to change the pitch, neither the patterns pitch, nor the new added sample's pitch... But changing pitch ruins the sound while changing it on the 606, so i prefer adjust the pitch at the turntables, that's hell of work too...
So there will always remain pitching issues...

i will later try to sample the james brown song, if i will find a HQ youtube video. I got a cable, jacks to analog in, which makes it easy to sample sounds out of iphone and everything that has a jack output (am i a cheater now?!?) ^^

Like i said, i deleted all my stuff on the 606 and set only 16 snares, 16 hats, and a few clapz, snaps, guitar rigs, and stock jazz samples to modify them.

afterwards if i tried out the stuff you mentioned, i will post you a summary, and i will try to make my soundcloud account work again, so i could share, and show you some of my productions.

Cheers, if you would live close to me, i would even offer you that Beer ;)
Many Thanks for this complete answer, and many thanks for the time it took to write this :)


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 Post subject: Re: Sampling
PostPosted: Fri Aug 09, 2013 5:33 pm 
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hello, is there a way to export a finished pattern? or do i need to record it with the laptop? be ready for my 4 2 tries ;) haha


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 Post subject: Re: Sampling
PostPosted: Fri Aug 09, 2013 7:36 pm 
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Nope, you have to record with another device.
I encourage you to read the manual my friend, it is very short. FYI I have a copy in my bag when I go out with my 404.
Do you have the OG 404 or the SX? I just got a 555 and I am really missing the function key and access to copy/exchange/etc. I use those a LOT.

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SP-202 (SOLD), SP-303 (SOLD), SP-404SX (main one I useD- killed w wrong PSU!), SP-505 (still have it!), SP-555 (SOLD), ES-1 (SOLD), ESX-1 (SOLD), RS7000, etc.


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 Post subject: Re: Sampling
PostPosted: Fri Aug 09, 2013 7:49 pm 
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I have the Manual as pdf on my iPhone, and i always have it in printed version close to the SP606. The original manual is it my library :)
well no i don't have any og404 or 555 (don't know what it is... :S )but if these are samplers, no, i don't have. i only own a SP606, 2 Turntables, a battle mixer, and a Korg R3 synthie...


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 Post subject: Re: Sampling
PostPosted: Fri Aug 09, 2013 7:52 pm 
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and, as an information, even before i had the SP606, the manual was read, but it has soooooo many functions... ;)


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 Post subject: Re: Sampling
PostPosted: Fri Aug 09, 2013 7:54 pm 
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Oh right, my bad- I forgot you have a 606 which is way more complex- and you might be able to export Patterns I actually do not know- I need to read the manual! :)
Also, you can create a new SoundCloud account just use a different email address.

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SP-202 (SOLD), SP-303 (SOLD), SP-404SX (main one I useD- killed w wrong PSU!), SP-505 (still have it!), SP-555 (SOLD), ES-1 (SOLD), ESX-1 (SOLD), RS7000, etc.


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 Post subject: Re: Sampling
PostPosted: Fri Aug 09, 2013 8:33 pm 
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no problem :) well, some say it's more complex, but it's display may be a great help too :)
here is my new soundclound account, but i haven't uploaded anything yet, i'm redoing the "beat" i made before putting it on soundclound, but here is the profile
https://soundcloud.com/bushmaster_j
cheers


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 Post subject: Re: Sampling
PostPosted: Sat Aug 10, 2013 12:38 pm 
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Hi again!

Om's right. You gotta record your patterns to another device/computer. The 606 doesn't record it's output on playback.

bgreene wrote:
placing the notes. Do you record them in real time or as step notes? I know only a little bit about this theoretical part, that's maybe why i still consider it difficult to get a nice beat done. Indeed, i did not even think about using the Roll function, but this could be nice to add a hihat for example, no?
Nice, glad those answers were handy last time... Would've sucked if my last post was irrelevant, ha!

OK so placing notes in real time or by step? To be honest I do both. Normally I use real time with quantize on (normally set to 16th notes). But the step sequencer's great for starting off patterns:
- Set it to record quarter notes & just hit kick-snare for the whole length of the pattern.
- Once the pattern's reached the end, hit stop, start the step sequence record again
- Set it to record 8th or 16th notes & hit the hihat pad for the whole length of the pattern
- Start recording in real time (with rehearsal turned on) & try hitting the kick to alter the rhythm & make the loop sound like old school boom bap. Turn rehearsal off & go for it once you've got your rhythm planned.

^With the sequencer channels, there's no rules about what to sequence where. Like assigning samples to pads it'll help to find what makes sense to you & use that theory for every pattern. Normally I'll put drums on sequencer track 1 & 2 & other samples on 3 & 4. Sometimes I might put variations on the other sequencer tracks on track 4 & unmute 4 for fills etc.

Use the roll for real time recording. Not sure if it'll work with step sequencing (never actually tried using roll in that recording mode), remember you can adjust note length in step sequence record, so you can manually enter some crazy rolls with a bit of effort.

bgreene wrote:
Nice, i've made a nice loop, but what should i do with it?! choping an rearranging is quiet difficult
Now let's say i would use the loop to record track1 of pattern 1, first of all i need to bpm sync the patterns pitch, but once recorded i will always need to change the pitch, neither the patterns pitch, nor the new added sample's pitch... But changing pitch ruins the sound while changing it on the 606, so i prefer adjust the pitch at the turntables, that's hell of work too...
So there will always remain pitching issues...
Ah... So here's where things get complex. If something loops nice on one pad:
- copy it onto another pad
- make sure both pads are set to the same mute group*
- edit the start/end points of the sample on the new pad (ie- get the sample to play from half way through the loop)
^ if your loop is 2 bars long, try placing it across 8 pads & get 7 of the pads to start at different points of the loop. Once you've programmed your drums, start jamming the 8 sample pads over the drums. It might take you a little while to get everything sounding right, but you can make whole songs like that. You'll definitely be able to get a Pete Rock vibe this way.

*Use the sample parameters (FUNC+13) to set mute groups. Mute groups will mean that when you hit one pad then the next, the 2nd pad will cancel the sound of the 1st pad. All you have to do is make sure both pads are set to the same mute group. It's incredibly useful & great that the 606 has 8 separate mute groups (meaning that groups 1 & 2 won't overlap so you can have multiple sample sets doing this).

*EDIT* Think I didn't quite answer your question there & I'm not sure if I understood your question. Do you mean you struggle to get the sample to loop correctly on playback?

Don't even bother with the 606's pitch adjust unless you want a really weird sound effect. Use your turntables for sure.

So a workaround is:
- stop your sample looping (in the sample parameter menu set the 'trig mode' to SHOT)
- if the loop's plays for one bar & you've got a 4 bar loop, get it to play at the start of each bar in the sequencer. If it's a 2 bar loop, get it to start at the beginning of every 2nd bar etc.
- on playback adjust the the BPM so that the loop plays evenly by speeding up/slowing down the tempo.
- once you get the pattern's tempo to match the sample, don't forget to save it by entering the edit window & setting the BPM there.

^Does that help?

bgreene wrote:
i will later try to sample the james brown song, if i will find a HQ youtube video. I got a cable, jacks to analog in, which makes it easy to sample sounds out of iphone and everything that has a jack output (am i a cheater now?!?) ^^
Haha! You're not a cheater now, not by a long shot! Nobody really cares where your samples came from. You know you can use the SP-606 as a USB sound card & sample direct from your computer that way? That makes sampling off Youtube a breeze. No need to find a high quality upload of that song either, try sampling it with the lo-fi on (effect 7, but be subtle with it). That'll help mask any digital sounding crunch off low quality sounds.

bgreene wrote:
afterwards if i tried out the stuff you mentioned, i will post you a summary, and i will try to make my soundcloud account work again, so i could share, and show you some of my productions.
Cool! Looking forward to hearing what you come up with! If you want, PM me any questions you've got about the 606 & how to use it. I remember what it's like starting out with this sampler & struggled for a year or so to make anything on it worth listening to, so I'm happy to help anyone get started on the 606.

It's good you've got the manual & have actually read it- one thing I used to do was try to use a new function on it every time I made a track on the SP. Having the manual ready so you can pick a function will make help you a lot.

Reads like you've got a killer little set up with the turntables, synth & SP. You should be able to do heaps with that... By the way, I'm nowhere near Europe so you can hold onto your beer money for now. Oh well. Cheers!

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 Post subject: Re: Sampling
PostPosted: Sat Aug 10, 2013 7:31 pm 
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Unfolding my good man, you are a gentleman and a scholar!
This thread could be condensed into a nice little "beat production 101"

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 Post subject: Re: Sampling
PostPosted: Sat Aug 10, 2013 7:58 pm 
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hello, yes, i saw that i can't record it, which is some kind of shitty... the 606 already has a saved file of my pattern but i can't take it out of the 606.
Now, about external sampling, no i can't... everytime i install a Korg driver on my mac (running on OS10.8.4), i need to back it up afterwards, don't know why, but i sucks! Apple doesn't care about that issue (who's wondering???),and Roland wasn't interessted in solving my problem too (that's why i once wanted to buy an mpc and sell the sp). so if i want to sample youtube videos, i need to sample them thru audio in. if connected to usb, nothing happens, neither on the mac, nor on the sp.
And i don't want to lose more time while trying to make that shit work.

Now back to sampling,
I now tried recording in stepmode, kick on 1&3, snare on 2&4 and hihats in an 1/8, and a loop by morcheeba (the sea). i don't know what i should say about it... it's nice that it sounds a little bit like a real beat, but finally, it is a boring one -.- there is too much left for me to learn, i don't think i will get it done one day... Using quant in real time only leads to a big mess of all kind of sounds, but not to a beat that anyone would ever listen to...
I should start playing with the "push it around" song by Q-Tip, indeed it has a nice, clean beat at the beginning.

how complicated, why didn't i chose something easier to do in my freetime?!? ^^
And, yes, the set-up is nice, especially the rane mixer, i love this mixer (ttm56s), but i can't play the turntables too, after i bought them, i bought the 606 too, and since then, i only played with the 606 and used the 1200s for sampling and playback use. The R3 synthie i don't really like, a good friend of mine (a musical noob like me too lol) likes playing it, that's why i have it. It's sounds may be better for techno/electro use.

About your posts:
yes, they really help (you are a 606genius ;) ), but i also need some time to try all of your hints out so it takes me a several time to change your hints into musical production. but they help a lot. I think it is way better if someone is explaining something you didn't understand to you, as if only reading book. reading books always leaves open questions that answer's are difficult to find.

Well, now, i'll return to the 606, my fingers need them pads :P
and sorry if i sometimes lose hope, that happens if i practice too much without getting the result i want... rmpf rmpf ;)


....wait, i should get a beer first too ;) cheers


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 Post subject: Re: Sampling
PostPosted: Sat Aug 10, 2013 9:53 pm 
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I think all beats start out simple and boring basically. I usually put a HH down first so it begins with just a steady clicking! Happy accidents happen as you build and erasing happens a lot with me as I work. you seem to have the passion and will to keep at it which is much of the battle. Also, some tracks are basically just a sampled loop like in "Push It Along" and the rest is other musical loops and the like- I think the beat basically stays the same- so depending on what you are going for you need to make sure not to over complicate it and possibly focus on trying to add entirely different elements once you have a basic beat. in any event it sounds like you are learning and having fun which is important. The frustration is just part of the process!
:)

I found this site and the book you mentioned- they both look like great resources I will have to tap into!
http://www.beattips.com/beattips/articles/
http://www.beattips.com/store/

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SP-202 (SOLD), SP-303 (SOLD), SP-404SX (main one I useD- killed w wrong PSU!), SP-505 (still have it!), SP-555 (SOLD), ES-1 (SOLD), ESX-1 (SOLD), RS7000, etc.


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 Post subject: Re: Sampling
PostPosted: Sun Aug 11, 2013 2:53 am 
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Om, yes, that's what i thought afterwards too, because indeed the "real" old school beat is a simple beat too. i thought about adding some jazz instrument loops, but well... let's see, now i need do go to work, thank you all for your answers, and, yes, sometimes fun, but a lot of frustration too ;)
cheers


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