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 Post subject: Whats first? Drums or samples?
PostPosted: Sat Sep 14, 2019 3:08 pm 
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Sup guys,

Just starting out again with my 404sx, after a loooonggg departure from it. Trying to get my creative flow back. So here i am asking you great teachers on what do you start off with first, when you wanna start dropping a beat?

Is it the drum loop you focus on? Then the chopping of samples later?
Or the other way around? <>

Seen as though i'm trying to get a good beat going with my 404sx. I see each maker is different, but i'm trying to follow my ears on this. Like sometimes i'll be so eager to find a record i just wanna dice up, just to play around with usually. And then mess with the drums later. But then I have trouble trying to find the right set of snares, Bass Drums, etc. For the beat itself. Then I end up getting slightly frustrated when the two don't necessarily mix.

I'm just trying to catch a nice dusty, but bassy type of drum loop similar to what Ohbliv, Tuamie, and others are creating, but not following their lane entirely. I just want to start riding the dam bike! (so to speak.) I know a bit of EQing and pitch, compression is able to kinda achieve that sort of sound. But i feel something is missing or am I wrong?

Any pointers/tips on this would be a gem. Appreciated for all contributions.


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 Post subject: Re: Whats first? Drums or samples?
PostPosted: Sat Sep 14, 2019 3:13 pm 
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Chop samples how you like . Usually play a quick chop rendition just to seek direction . Then get your bpm/ knod rhythm . Make drum pattern . Layer chops over top .. add extra percusdions n layers .

On the 404 i found its most effective to eq drums before adding layers .. the 404 has a tendency to refuce quality if you keep resampling

Hope this helped a little

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 Post subject: Re: Whats first? Drums or samples?
PostPosted: Sat Sep 14, 2019 3:25 pm 
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Thanks my man. Preciated. Will give this a try, see if i can steer.

I've also noticed that my drums (mainly), are having a hissing aftertone to them. Do you know why that is? It's not loud, but enough that if you listen carefully you can hear it towards the end of the pad.


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 Post subject: Re: Whats first? Drums or samples?
PostPosted: Sat Sep 14, 2019 9:01 pm 
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.. no problem

Only think i can think is .. is Lo-Fi button activated?

If not .. maybe trim end of sample as tight as you can

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 Post subject: Re: Whats first? Drums or samples?
PostPosted: Sun Sep 15, 2019 7:31 am 
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SPs' compressor can (actually WILL) add hiss.
You ought to be gentle with it, and all the EFXs for that matter. Compressing individually helps ofc. but I guess it all comes down to what you're after really.
Never just push the knobs around, be sure you know what does each 'Ctrl' option actually do, it will be a major impact on your future beat making, because it'll fast things up.
Like, you hear a sample and you know how it's gonna sound when you slap a particular MFX on it, in advance. Other than wasting time only to realise it'll never work.
But that's practice, you know that, practice makes it perfect. No need to stress that.
And a whole lot of music production theory - this pinpoints the potentially dangerous things, like phase cancellation - which IS a big deal really, plus the SP is not 'producer friendly' (no balance left to right for one thing) so you gotta work around that.
I'm using MFX3 when I wanna stretch something left to right, to get a bit bigger stereo spectrum.
Also one of the reasons I ALWAYS sample stereo, only later while resampling will I decide if I need to be in the centre of the mix, ergo place it mono.
As for work flow, shit, I always start with the drums. But I'm bassist /drummer originally, so I guess it figures..
My trick is to sample with the 'AND' part.
It's nothing new, didn't fkn invented it, people been doing that for ages, but not as often as one would think.
Hear me out - say you like a drum break, but you'd play it slightly differently, or you wanna be able to punch in a hit or two more somewhere.
Now I gotta be a bit 'plastic' explaining it, sorry for that :D
So the drum break is : KICK - hat - SNARE - hat - hat - SNARE - KICK/hat - open hi hat, and so on.
Most people will chop that into individual kick / snare / hat/ open hat, and go from there.
I'd do the same, BUT, also chop 'KICK - hat' and 'SNARE - hat' as well.
If the beat is ONE - and - TWO - and - THREE ('and' being hi hat), that's exactly where you chop. On the 'and' part, just gotta be really precise.
Now, when you disable 'gate' function, and start playing with those two samples, you get some wicked shit brother. Sounds waaaaaaaay more natural and precise, than when you punch in the hi hats yourself, at least to me it does ..
TWO downsides to this method :
- Hard to change BPM, at least too much (subtle changes are mostly ok) you gotta roll with the samples' original tempo for best results
- It has to be a simple beat. The simpler, the better, because complicated patterns overlap each other, and this could lead to frustration. Same goes for tempo, mid tempo is the best
You also have to be in groove, but that goes without saying.
Combination of those two, with the regular kick /snare /hat works the best for me - in creative terms ofc
That's the main reason I'll usually start from the drums, and most of the time not even move forward to other samples before I nail the entire drum track down.
This means I already played with the harmonic samples, like THE GREAT said, to get a hang of where I'm heading, but until I'm happy with the drums, I don't stop.

Bit of a long post, man sorry about that... I'm still a bit hung over from last night..

Peace

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 Post subject: Re: Whats first? Drums or samples?
PostPosted: Mon Sep 16, 2019 8:15 pm 
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No, thanks g. Really apperciate it. There's a bit there to unpack and some good pointers to keep in mind, so is all good.

I've already started noticing that keeping the chops short and sweet is key a lot of the time. (Dilla was a master for this.) I tend to get carried away with chopping up samples, leading to a bank being fully stocked up then having little room to mess with the FX processing and what not, on the chops. So then i get frustrated. Trying to discipline myself with that and not get carried away and stick to a few chops that i know feel good and run with that, rather than trying to dissect the sample too much, where i have trouble trying to fit everything in with the beat itself. And in turn sometimes it not sounding as jivey/catchy as before even.

I think that is one of the problems with the 404sx is that it has a limited amount of space range (If you wanna call it that.) That seems to not have much room in order to create a better flushed out beat and just compensate for a quick boom-bap 1-2 type of feel/beat. I could be wrong but that's what i feel with this sampler.

Any advice on that at all by the way? ^^

Like i would be interested in switching it up with another sampler, to add more lengthy and filled beats to create in future perhaps. But for now i'm trying to just master the 404sx and then decide investing on other gear later. I noticed a few producers use the MPC 2000/XL for chopping i believe? I again could be wrong, but from what i've heard that is better for dicing up your sample much better than the 404sx works. But some use that in conjunct with the 404sx, I may do so when i get the dosh to invest in one.

Thanks for feedback, as always.


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 Post subject: Re: Whats first? Drums or samples?
PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2019 7:12 am 
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Aye, don't even get me started on that :D
It's like, I always preferred the faster work flow, SP 404sx is too slow for sample chopping / trimming, there's no visual pointer or anything, it's all ears and a lot of patience.
Wanted MPC LIVE for the same reasons you do, but settled for Arturia drumbrute impact, and spent the rest on weed :D might get it at some point, but so far I managed to make a certain work flow that suits me.
Great thing about MPCs - something I hope Roland will consider adding in the future - velocity sensitive pads and ability to 'stretch' (scale) the sample over the entire octave by pushing a button. I mean tons of other useful features SP simply doesn't have, but these two are my favourite.
Tbh I chop / trim in 'Soundforge' most of my samples. Way, way quicker. Prep them by adding a bit of compression, or if I need them to be placed left / right in the mix - keep it stereo, but bring the volume on one channel down accordingly. Only then I export them back to the SP, and start creating.
It also helps a lot if you figure out the exact BPM and then create a project in Cubase, or wherever, with that BPM set.
I do that, and once I got more or less everything resampled on the SP - I export the samples to project to set the exact same length for each one, and I bring them back to SP. So now when I loop them, it's all gonna roll perfectly forever, without skipping at some point.
It's almost impossible to do it perfectly by ear on the SP, there's just no way.
I had the same problem like you (space), like for this one track I had samples in five banks, all over the place. Fkn confusing .. So now I try to organise in groups (by resampling) and keep everything on one bank per track only. So the top row would typically be drums (either chopped breaks/ loops organised by verse / chorus / bridge, or one shots resampled with the efx I'm using), Mid row would be harmony samples, and bottom row 'other' - but like I said earlier, I start with the drums, and until I nail the entire track down, I don't move to other things. So sometimes I have the entire drum track laid out in the first pad, maybe copy it to second pad as well so I can bounce between the two using efx or whatever - and everything else on that bank are one shots. Or, everything could be resampled into parts (chorus / verse), already played and chopped - like keys and guitars on one pad, bass and drums on another, and so on - this leave extra space for action (individual snare hits, crash, vocal samples etc)
Bottom line is you ought to figure out what works for you the best. Since I love playing around with the drums (by adding delay, djfx looper and so on) - most of the time I live them intact, maybe compressed and resampled - but clean so I can add efx while playing, whereas other samples are already resampled with the efx, so I just switch them on/off.
Could very well be the other way around, that's exactly what I love about this machine - forces you to think upfront a lot

Peace

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 Post subject: Re: Whats first? Drums or samples?
PostPosted: Fri Sep 27, 2019 3:59 pm 
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LoopmantrA wrote:
SPs' compressor can (actually WILL) add hiss.
You ought to be gentle with it, and all the EFXs for that matter. Compressing individually helps ofc. but I guess it all comes down to what you're after really.


lmao, wat? the compressor does not in any way add hiss, bud. compressors bring up quiet sounds, and lower the loudest sounds, thus compressing the overall dynamic range. you're thinking the compressor is somehow adding hiss, but no man, it was already there! you just amplified it.

and sorry, being honest, tl;dr i didn't read the rest of your reply lol

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HAWTKARL wrote:
The last thing we need is another utube sampling digital lo-fi anime beat maker.

IIIII wrote:
he can turn water into a beat, and feed a thousand dancehalls with only two drumbreaks

"If you want that '90s sound, record at 12 bit as HOT as you can."


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 Post subject: Re: Whats first? Drums or samples?
PostPosted: Fri Sep 27, 2019 4:12 pm 
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LoopmantrA wrote:
And a whole lot of music production theory - this pinpoints the potentially dangerous things, like phase cancellation - which IS a big deal really, plus the SP is not 'producer friendly' (no balance left to right for one thing) so you gotta work around that.
I'm using MFX3 when I wanna stretch something left to right, to get a bit bigger stereo spectrum.


brrruuuhhh, what

1. wtf does phase cancellation have to do with the workflow on a sampler?
you can't reverse the polarity of waves on your fucking sp?

2. you can easily pan things on sp. i'm not too familiar with the models besides my 202, 303, 404, but 303 and 404 have mfx tremolo/pan.
other than that, you can easily:

a. run your sp through a mixer, adjust the balance, and record that then resample

b. or record into a porta or something similar in order to adjust your balance, then resample

3. chorus is not an effective way of trying to manipulate stereo balance bud. actually, it is not a way to do that at all. any change in the stereo space you may perceive is only an extraneous byproduct of the effect

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HAWTKARL wrote:
The last thing we need is another utube sampling digital lo-fi anime beat maker.

IIIII wrote:
he can turn water into a beat, and feed a thousand dancehalls with only two drumbreaks

"If you want that '90s sound, record at 12 bit as HOT as you can."


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 Post subject: Re: Whats first? Drums or samples?
PostPosted: Fri Sep 27, 2019 4:18 pm 
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honestly i'm not going to read the rest of your essay on this thread, loopmantra,
but OP, be wary when listening to people on the internet.
you're a nice kid loop. don't take this the wrong way. you just unintentionally spread a bunch of misinformation in this thread, and i felt the need to rectify it.

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HAWTKARL wrote:
The last thing we need is another utube sampling digital lo-fi anime beat maker.

IIIII wrote:
he can turn water into a beat, and feed a thousand dancehalls with only two drumbreaks

"If you want that '90s sound, record at 12 bit as HOT as you can."


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 Post subject: Re: Whats first? Drums or samples?
PostPosted: Fri Sep 27, 2019 4:36 pm 
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You're truly an idiot Zendan.
First off, unless you actually read everything, you have no say.
Second, English is not my primary language, and I do my best - meaning, that's exactly what I meant, SP compressor amplifies the hiss, you're right.
I'm almost 40. Thanks for the kid part, muppet.
Since you spent exactly Fuck - o time in proper music studio, I don't expect that you know anything about phase cancellation, and who the fuck mentioned anything about that and work flow?! I said SP is not the best producing tools, among other things because of Inability to deal with balance or phase cancellation, and please don't teach me how to deal with it outside the box. Not taking advice from junkie who's all about drama.
Tnx.
I know what chorus is, probably way better than you, I just said I use it to pan certain instruments, because ctrl3 can actually do that
E

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 Post subject: Re: Whats first? Drums or samples?
PostPosted: Fri Sep 27, 2019 4:39 pm 
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Once more, leave your fkn drama and idiotic behaviour outside this forum.
And learn TO READ dumbass, it'll help.
You literally misinterpreted everything I said, turned it around so you can attack verbally.
I hope you fkn rot somewhere you disgusting piece of shit, every time I give you a chance and actually think that you've changed, you prove me wrong.
You better hope to God we never meet faggot.

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 Post subject: Re: Whats first? Drums or samples?
PostPosted: Fri Sep 27, 2019 4:41 pm 
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Like, LITERALLY misinterpreted everything I said.
Schmuck.

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 Post subject: Re: Whats first? Drums or samples?
PostPosted: Fri Sep 27, 2019 4:55 pm 
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Imagine the toxic monkey like yourself, who opens up five accounts only to vote for himself in the beat battle, plus is almost never right, and I could easily link here every fkn post where you act like you're the SP MASTER OF KNOWLEDGE, but where people put you to your right place in the mud - trying to teach me something lol you have, like, 20 hours of jacking and button pushing in your bedroom, gtfo you Swiss cheese brain malaki
Most recently, about copying files to SP without the use of wave converter, or you forgot that?
Where you easily went from "YOU'RE ALL FKN RETARDED, THERE IS NO WAY THAT YOU CAN COPY FILES WITHOUT WAVE CONVERTER, THAT'S WHY THEY INVENTED IT' - when people pointed out that li'l pad labeled 'IMPORT' - to "I'M SAYING WHY THE FUCK WOULD YOU USE IT, IF YOU HAVE WAVE CONVERTER"
No, that's not what you said, you pathetic excuse for a human being.

Don't think that you know oh so much.
You're the best example of Dunning - Kruger I've seen so far, BUD.
Fkn aids spreading piece of shit.
He's right, OP - take care who you listen to here

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 Post subject: Re: Whats first? Drums or samples?
PostPosted: Fri Sep 27, 2019 6:56 pm 
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@doopfucktra

dude, you can let your massive ego solidify your idiocy all you want.
i quoted you on all of the things i rebutted. i'm not going to dignify all your shit talk with a response. just letting you know all the stuff i rebutted is facts.

@ OP
HERE'S SOME ACTUAL CITATIONS AND FACTS ABOUT THE STUFF DOOPFUCKTARD WAS WRONG ABOUT, BUD


"In audio production, chorus is one of the two standard audio effects defined by the Musical Instrument Digital Interface ( MIDI ). The other effect is reverb (reverberation). Chorus adds a swirling property to a sound that it is applied to, thickening the sound. Chorus is commonly used with instruments like the electric piano and guitar and with synthesizers. Most sound cards that have an onboard MIDI sound set contain both chorus and reverb."

- https://whatis.techtarget.com/definition/chorus

you should've said you were a kid btw, because admitting you're middle-aged is just that much worse for your intelligence being so damn questionable

i was being perfectly respectful btw. you're acting like a child. you were saying all kinds of false nonsense, and that's not responsible nor courteous to the OP's pursuit of knowledge.

"DEPTH (dPt)Adjusts the amount of volume/pan change."
"RATE (rAt)Adjusts the speed of volume/pan change."
"WAVEFORM (trM/PAn)Changes the type of curve by which the volume or pan will change cyclically. Turn the knob toward the left for volume change, or toward the right for pan change"

- https://www.manualslib.com/manual/14189 ... =21#manual


"Phase cancellation is an acoustic phenomenon in which two or more “out of phase” sound waves result in weakened or lost frequencies. When two identical frequencies are cycling 180° opposite each other, complete phase cancellation occurs."
"Phase becomes a concern when multiple microphones are used on a single sound source. If the mics are not in the exact same space, one will receive the sound slightly later than the other, causing the signal to be out of phase. Repositioning the microphones to eliminate phase issues is generally the best bet. However, in certain circumstances, a polarity reversal switch on a channel strip or preamp can be engaged to flip the signal’s cycle, bringing it back in phase.

To ultimately avoid phase problems on a multi-miked single instrument, you’ll have to be sure the microphones’ capsules are as physically close together as possible. For spaced mics, placing them equidistant from the source will ensure that the direct sound is captured without time delay.

It’s also worth noting that mics should be placed at least a few feet away from walls. There is potential for the mic to pick up reflections off the walls which are not in phase with the direct sound entering the transducer."

- https://producelikeapro.com/blog/phase-cancellation/

sample based music has nothing to do with this, unless you're going reversing the polarity of identical sound waves (one with vocals) and layering them. <- for vocal isolation

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HAWTKARL wrote:
The last thing we need is another utube sampling digital lo-fi anime beat maker.

IIIII wrote:
he can turn water into a beat, and feed a thousand dancehalls with only two drumbreaks

"If you want that '90s sound, record at 12 bit as HOT as you can."


Last edited by zendan on Sat Oct 05, 2019 9:56 am, edited 7 times in total.

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