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 Post subject: real differences between 8000 and 8800 AND vs mc909
PostPosted: Sat May 24, 2014 12:48 pm 
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hi
i recently seen here (france) that the 8000 used price is much more than the 8800 used one...i would like to know the reasons why, i mean, they're really so different? the 8000 used price: 700/800€...8800: 500/600€...
other things...also if you have posts on the fourms or external links to tell me, go ahead...

-would you like to make a comparison on the fly with me with a sort of mc909 vs MVs seq, fx, workflow,internal sounds,eq, mastering etc? i believe that they are mostly the same, but who knows...
-how different tracks sort out in sound on the MVs? sometimes, according to the samples, that is a bit hard to manage correctly on the mc909, Mastering/comp/eq section is "general", so you don't have this track per track, and sometimes is better to resampling in order to better manage the thing...have you got EQ track per track on the MV, also with Q value?
-can you dirty the sound on the MVs, do you have 22hz or 11hz choise like on sps on sampling/resampling? i didnt find anything on the manual in that direction...on the mc909 this is not possible, but you have some cool fx (lofi comp, a dirty one!) but this is not exactly degrading samples as on sps...
thanks
-have you got a sort of patch system on the MV, i.e. you create Patches in order to use samples/internal sounds? this is the way mc909 works...it has 4tones per patch, and you could layer 4samples or sounds, that is very cool but you have to pay attention to stereo/mono samples in order not to go out of polyphony sometimes (if you use all the 16 tracks simultaneously)...

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 Post subject: Re: real differences between 8000 and 8800 AND vs mc909
PostPosted: Wed May 28, 2014 2:31 pm 
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-Get the 8800, has built in mouse/VGA monitor support + monosynth (basically VA bass) can be used as master effect

-Dont know the MC909, here is a basic MV overview
-16 internal tracks + 1 audio track (like sample in realtime, or have timestretched stuff on it) + bunch of external tracks for MIDI out to other synths/samplers
-FX: 1 delay, 1 verb, 1 master; master can be stuff like compressor/bit crush/vinyl/lost of distortions/chorus/phaser + the monosynth I mentioned if you want that instead of master effect.
-Workflow: Really nice, simple DAW like: add tracks (internal or external), select a track and record. Then you can edit it in a piano roll/event list/copy paste, etc etc. Very easy to resample sounds with added effects.
-Internal sounds: You have "Patches" which can be up to 96 (16 pads x 6 banks) sounds - each sound can be up to 4 samples. Each sound has a multimode filter/LFO/Pitch/effect level. Can assign to mute groups.
-EQ: Per Patch eq, lo/mid/hi with Q.
-Mastering: Never used the final step MV version, i've heard people like it ok. I do like the compression on the master FX to give it an SP-like glue/punchiness
-I would say the MC909 is an advanced "groovebox" but the MV is a studio/sampling beast that competes/beats stuff like MPC4000. The harddrive addition means always easy to USB files over there or even entire songs to work on /add to. For example, I copied a bunch of high quality mellotron samples onto the MV, and with some basic envelope settings and assigning the right notes to pads, I have convincing keyboard patches that sound like they are coming out of a high end keyboard workstation :mrgreen:

-Mastering/Comp/EQ - EQ is per track, so pretty easy to manage. Comp you can do on the master (ie, applies to all tracks) FX or assign to just some of the internal patches. EQ does have Q value; resampling is quick and always an option. Also has SP type effects like Isolator/Vinyl sim/Bit crush to dirty it up.
Another old sampler trick you can do is pitch shift it - 48 semitones, resample that, then turn pitch back to 0 - instant mud. There are so many effects on the MV, i've barely scratched the surface. Even has very decent Amp Sim for guitar type distortion/recording direct bass/guitar/synth with fuzz. Not sure if you can sample at 22/11khz.

-Yes the patch system on the MV is fantastic. Say you load up 96 drum single hits, you just save that with a filename in a folder just like on a computer, then you can load that to any track on any project. You can do the 4 layers per sound, which is cool on stuff like layered snares, then you can set the threshold based on velocity, so for example layers 2 and 3 only trigger at full (127) velocity.

Already rambled too much, but here is an simplified example of MV workflow for me
1. Go to pattern mode, add some tracks
track 1: Drum single hits, bass/snare
track 2: More drum hits! maybe analog sounding, or SFX, or found sound
track 3 - 5: Samples from movies/records/chops - generally longer bar length stuff. Mangle/Filter/loop/pitch to hearts content
track 6: Some sort of instrument from MV: mellotron, sampled bass, rhodes, etc.
tracks 8 - 10: External MIDI devices: analog mono, sp404sx, workstation for higher end instrument sounds.....
and more and more....

Now, record that pattern , however many bars you want - you can also edit "mutes", like dropping tracks in and out - then you can even record something "live" on the audiotrack, like singing/rapping/bass guitar/etc.

Now, you can take that pattern and copy it to another blank pattern, and keep building on it - or clear the notes and add a 2nd part, but using all the tracks/effect settings you had on that other pattern.......then you can "play" the patterns from the pads in pattern play mode, like triggering patterns on the SPs

I guess you can tell I"m an MV fan 8)


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 Post subject: Re: real differences between 8000 and 8800 AND vs mc909
PostPosted: Wed May 28, 2014 3:21 pm 
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man thanks very much for the review! still surpirsed that the 8800 offers more and costs less than the 8000 here...
anyway, from what i read from your review,as i supected, the MVs and the MC909 are mostly the same; the notable differences are:
1)pads (obviously)
2)Mastering-comp-eq per track...as i said above, the 909 got this in "general" way...for me this is a big difference as most of the time i want to compose/produce/write in the box as if possible...
3)how do you choose tracks? on the 909 you can do it directly with buttons ton the face
4)do automations works too on the MVs (they do on the 909 by recording them in realtime)?
5)the external tracks on the 909 are the same 16 tracks; on the seq you can choose between BOTH, EXT or INT...on the MVs you can create more than 16 external tracks?

...the rest is the same...also the pitch trick...almost the same fx (2fx simultaneously on the MVs?)...the patches workflow and their inner 4tones/lfo/filter/amp/fxsend/mute group thing etc...also sampling while the pattern is playing is the same...
another freaky trick on the 909 is to use the editor wich allows to choose up to 4 different controller(knobs, faders,mini faders etc) to assign them 3 parameters to control, so for example:AMP release will control pitch+cutoff+lforate simultaneously (!!) so you have nasty weirdy fx with one knob/fader etc and you can automate them (and resample them ehehe)...

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 Post subject: Re: real differences between 8000 and 8800 AND vs mc909
PostPosted: Thu May 29, 2014 1:03 pm 
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i took a better look on the MVs manuals (damn, 3 manuals for general, screen pop ups and appendices... :shock: ), so now i see things a bit clearer...
...so...
-FX: isn't very clear on the manual if you could use them per track or not...the cool thing is you can save an fx patch after editing it...can you choose what fx combine into the mfx block or is a sort of rigid block?
mc909:can't save fx patch (the seq remember their setting every on/off, but no external exporting is allowed), it can combine the 2 fx you like (plus rev+comp)
-Loop Start/End point: is it possible to tweak it while the sequencer is playing? You can tweak it for different tracks (not simultaneously)?
mc909: you can choose only one sample to tweak/edit (also reverse is allowed)
Separate OUTS: on the MV8800 they don't come with (!!!): for the original price this is exagerating by roland...i read that they aren't cheap...
mc909: 2 separate stereo outs integrated...
-EQ: as we said above, the eq is avaliable track per tack in Mastering mode, wich is cool; by the way only the mid freq has its Q value; i noticed that on the fx there is an EQ wich has the Q for lo, mi, hi...cool...
mc909: general EQ on master section; got 3 EQ fx on the fx section indeed, the Q is only in the mid freq (but you got a Spectrum effect with wich with some workarounds you can resample better EQed tracks)
-Microedit (on the MV is Piano Roll): you can copy/paste/delete an user defined region with different data portions
mc909: you can only create/copy/paste/delete/move an event (only a defined data) per time (and the MV can do that too)...regions are selectable on the mc909 but they are better defined on the MV: on the 909 you can select (and copy/paste etc) an entire mesure, but as you see this is more accurate on the MV...
-Patch: on this side the mc909 seems more indeep, not only for much more parameters (LFO, the tone env mode or the tone delay mode), but also for other cool options like more controllers (combinig 4 different parameters simultaneously controlled by up to different 4 knobs/faders of your choice so you have 4 possible new controllers wich tweak 4 indipendent parameters in one movement...) or the TMT (the mixing between the 4 tones per patch etc)
-Mute: also this is a weak point compared with 909;the mute on the MV is done by rotating/tweaking a knob for just one track...on the 909 you have 8(+8) mute/unmute buttons right in front of you...

...for now that's all, i would like to study more the MV manual

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 Post subject: Re: real differences between 8000 and 8800 AND vs mc909
PostPosted: Thu May 29, 2014 4:36 pm 
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-FX: isn't very clear on the manual if you could use them per track or not...the cool thing is you can save an fx patch after editing it...can you choose what fx combine into the mfx block or is a sort of rigid block?


You can assign delay/verb/MFX per track, in 0-127 amount...the MFX block (although it only holds one effect at a time) usually has 2-4 pages of parameters to mess with to get it like you want


-Loop Start/End point: is it possible to tweak it while the sequencer is playing? You can tweak it for different tracks (not simultaneously)?


I think so, not positive though...seems like i have done that - you can set a sample to loop/reverse/one shot/alternate (play fwd/then bkwd) et

-Patch: on this side the mc909 seems more indeep, not only for much more parameters (LFO, the tone env mode or the tone delay mode), but also for other cool options like more controllers (combinig 4 different parameters simultaneously controlled by up to different 4 knobs/faders of your choice so you have 4 possible new controllers wich tweak 4 indipendent parameters in one movement...) or the TMT (the mixing between the 4 tones per patch etc)

I'm not so sure...the LFO and Envelope options go *deep* on the MV, you just have to dig a screen deeper. Pretty sure you can assign the 8 faders on the MV to do lots of stuff, i just have not gotten into that yet.

-Mute: also this is a weak point compared with 909;the mute on the MV is done by rotating/tweaking a knob for just one track...on the 909 you have 8(+8) mute/unmute buttons right in front of you...


Nah, mute on the MV is super easy - You can put it in a mode where the 16 pads = 16 tracks and mute (and record those mutes) on the fly....its super nice

I'd also mention again, the FX on the MV8800 are insane....see if you can find the appendix that lists them out with details. Its like having the SP effects + years of Boss/Roland pedals at your disposal


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 Post subject: Re: real differences between 8000 and 8800 AND vs mc909
PostPosted: Thu May 29, 2014 8:54 pm 
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blavatsky wrote:
-Mute: also this is a weak point compared with 909;the mute on the MV is done by rotating/tweaking a knob for just one track...on the 909 you have 8(+8) mute/unmute buttons right in front of you...


Nah, mute on the MV is super easy - You can put it in a mode where the 16 pads = 16 tracks and mute (and record those mutes) on the fly....its super nice

ok, it seems more like mpc here...btw on the 909 you have the mute control too (recording/editing the mute points)...


blavatsky wrote:
I'd also mention again, the FX on the MV8800 are insane....see if you can find the appendix that lists them out with details. Its like having the SP effects + years of Boss/Roland pedals at your disposal


ok.
this is dipending on the sound of the machine, i think the fx are the same as on the 909 if i rememeber well but while on the MV there are more types of choruses, on the 909 there are more types of delays

man thanks for the confrontation and this comparison
i'll write here if i found some other interesting things

ps
i found the lfo and the 4 tones too! damn with 3 manuals is not that easy to find everything :) it was on the something called Partial screen...MV Patches got almost the same structure of 909s Patches...maybe you can do the mixing of tones too...
...for the moment, and this seems logical, the MV (a sampler) seems a lot more advanced on sampling/editing and pattern editing while the 909 (an hybrid groovebox) seems more capable to create sounds (XV series engine) and performing live...
ps2
i foget to mention the RPS and the Arpeggio/Chord Memory on the 909: the first one is a cool feature that let you improvise with midi Phrases on the 16 pads (with its own mixer apart from the general mixer) while the general pattern is playing; the second ones let you write or improvise live (rolls, melodyes etc)or simply tweak on-the-fly between user written arpeggio patterns

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